Spokane, Waco, East Lansing, Lawrence....
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Orange Blooded [4754]
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Spokane, Waco, East Lansing, Lawrence....
Feb 18, 2017, 9:32 PM
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If you can build and maintain winning basketball programs in those cities there is no reason for Clemson to expect the same results. Sadly we have many that have given up and just accept the malaise we call Clemson Basketball.
There is no excitement with the current staff and it really shows. Most coaches have a 5 year plan CBB has a nice 15 year plan it seems.
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Legend [19822]
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Kansas is a blueblood, so that's a terrible comp
Feb 18, 2017, 11:01 PM
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Michigan St has been a great program for years. I'll certainly say Baylor, but Romar is probably fired after this year at Washington.
I've said it for a while. We need our own Terry Holland, Lefty Driessell, Bobby Cremins. The right guy to come to Clemson and stay.
Who that is I don't know. But it's all about the coach, especially in basketball.
And it looks as though some really good jobs will be open this off season, so a lot of competition for hires. Definitely State, LSU; probably Washington, Missouri, Illinois, maybe Ohio St, Indiana and Kansas St.
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CU Guru [1712]
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Re: Kansas is a blueblood, so that's a terrible comp
Feb 18, 2017, 11:22 PM
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I think the point he's trying to make is that Clemson has everything to be competitive.
We should not settle for being good in one thing; we should strive to excel in everything our University does.
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Legend [19822]
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It has nothing to do with the town though
Feb 18, 2017, 11:52 PM
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It's all about the coach. Kansas has had great coaches. Izzo at MSU is a great coach. So is Drew. It's the coach that brings in and develops the players.
Even blue bloods struggle without the right coach. Remember Matt Doherty?
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All-TigerNet [10926]
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All-In [40999]
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Cremins had 6 winning seasons in the ACC 9 losing seasons
Feb 19, 2017, 6:28 AM
[ in reply to Kansas is a blueblood, so that's a terrible comp ] |
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and 4 ties while at GT. In his last 10 seasons at GT, he had 1 winning ACC season and went to the NCAA 1 time in his last 6 years. .472 in the ACC after 19 years.
No much of an improvement.
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Legend [19822]
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Cremons put Tech basketball on the map
Feb 19, 2017, 7:49 AM
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He never recovered from the chicken job fiasco, and had several rough years after that, but for a long stretch he consistently competed in a murderous ACC at a school with zero tradition.
If he did at Clemson what he did at Tech the court would be named after him and a statue would be out front. No Clemson coach has come close to what he accomplished at Tech
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Orange Blooded [2234]
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CU Guru [1712]
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I agree
Feb 18, 2017, 11:23 PM
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Why can't our basketball program win?
Why is it that some of our so-called fans are willing to accept it?
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Legend [17337]
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Populations of the cities you mention:
Feb 19, 2017, 12:07 AM
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Spokane- 210,721 Waco - 129,030 East Lansing - 48,554 Lawrence - 90,811
Clemson - 14,276
Cliche or not, basketball players trend towards more urban locales. You can see from the data above where the outlier is. Clemson has no tradition of winning, next level facilities, or regional talent base to draw from like we do in football.
Until we get a coach in here that changes the culture, what we are experiencing right now is our status quo. It's going to take someone special to build momentum and put Clemson bball on the map. Right now, the only thing we're selling is that we are in the ACC. It's time to make the move.
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Orange Blooded [4495]
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Re: Populations of the cities you mention:
Feb 19, 2017, 12:46 AM
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Just a note about your population stats. East Lansing is much bigger. It's basically Lansing (the capital, well over 100,000) and Lawrence is close enough to be basically Kansas City I would say.
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Legend [17337]
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Thank you. That just reinforces it more.***
Feb 19, 2017, 12:50 AM
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Orange Blooded [4495]
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Re: Thank you. That just reinforces it more.***
Feb 19, 2017, 1:06 AM
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Yep. Thought so. Can't really compare us at all to those cities
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CU Medallion [59044]
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There are tons of good basketball players that don't come
Feb 19, 2017, 1:43 AM
[ in reply to Populations of the cities you mention: ] |
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from huge metro urban areas, even if traditionally most have. Besides, just because a kid is from such an area, it doesn't necessarily mean that he wouldn't want something different, or wouldn't appreciate what Clemson has to offer. Sure, given our lack of basketball tradition, it won't be as easy for us as it is for many of our competitors, but that's where we are and where we have to start. It can be done, and we have to break free from the nonsense mentality that it can't or that it's just too hard, and quit using that excuse.
We get good football players now from all over, for two main reasons: They believe they can win big here, and they connect when they come here and recognize that there is something different and special here. If we have the commitment from the university, and a coach who can convey those things to recruits, we will get better players in basketball as well. Granted, the challenge is bigger given the lack of tradition, and it may take a while to get there, but with the vision and the right coach, there is no reason it can't be built here.
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Legend [19822]
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It is 100% dependent upon the right coach
Feb 19, 2017, 3:46 AM
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coming to Clemson, and staying
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CU Guru [1898]
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Striperfan, you are right
Feb 19, 2017, 9:11 AM
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"And staying" is a huge factor.
Unfortunately, our basketball is similar to Kentucky football.
The advantage? 1 or 2 players make the difference.
So the coach has to be able to get them. And recruiting is much different today than in the past.
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All-In [44293]
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I agree that the coach is a big part of it, but...
Feb 19, 2017, 11:43 AM
[ in reply to It is 100% dependent upon the right coach ] |
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it still requires a sustained commitment from the university. That commitment means not only updating facilities like we just did, but maintaining them and enhancing them as needed. It means being willing to pay a good salary consistent with what good ACC programs pay. It means giving that coach what he needs in terms of assistant coach salaries and support staff. It means fans showing up to games with regularity.
If we do those things, a successful coach will not only come to Clemson, but STAY at Clemson.
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CU Medallion [59044]
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Orange Blooded [4098]
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All-In [25437]
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Orange Blooded [4345]
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ive read enough. Wt£ are we talking about here? Somehow this
Feb 19, 2017, 5:59 AM
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little town with a college satisfies the nations best football recruits, (85+mind you) but for BBall it doesn't? Help me out here. What am I missing? Oh, that's right. Excitement coming from the top on the recruiting trail. Before the "we recruit against the ACC " arguement starts, remember Dabo was recruiting against the ACC and the SEC when he got the ball rolling and still is. It can be done, but when your salesman is as dry as cardboard, it's a tough sell. It can be done.
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Legend [17624]
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Point for "dry as cardboard" .***
Feb 19, 2017, 7:34 AM
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All-In [44293]
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Basketball players tending to choose urban areas is a myth.
Feb 19, 2017, 11:40 AM
[ in reply to Populations of the cities you mention: ] |
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Please show me all of the basketball powerhouses in New York City, Chicago, Boston, and Detroit. I'll wait...
Yes, basketball is played in urban areas because equipment costs are cheap (all you need is a hoop and flat surface), and you can easily get a game going with at least two players. Football and baseball are obviously harder due to needing more space, more equipment, and more players.
But basketball is not just played in urban areas. It is played throughout the country, year-round, in all locales - urban, suburban, and rural.
Look at the basketball powers not located in urban areas - there are many.
The excuse that Clemson isn't good because it is not in an urban area is ridiculous. Clemson isn't good in basketball because we never devote our time, attention, and money to it like the successful programs do. Which is stupid, because with a little more passion and commitment, we would be a good program that makes the NCAA Tournament every year.
It's time we stop making silly excuses and decide to be good at basketball. It would be the first time in our program's 100+ year history.
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CU Medallion [59044]
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Agree - That's what I'm saying as well.***
Feb 19, 2017, 11:56 AM
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Orange Blooded [4098]
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Re: Basketball players tending to choose urban areas is a myth.
Feb 19, 2017, 3:45 PM
[ in reply to Basketball players tending to choose urban areas is a myth. ] |
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GREAT POST!! agree with 100% of it. We have talked about how hard it is to recruit to Clemson for years and all that is is a very poor excuse.If, HUGE IF, we get behind it we could be very good in basketball! We just have TO WANT TO BE GOOD!! the last thing we should do is hire a new coach by telling him that we know he can`t recruit to Clemson. Pay him and he will come! We are4 paying the one we have now and we are getting stomped by 48 points by a school we should easily be the EQUAL TO!
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Legend [16532]
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That's fair, but there is hardly a smaller city than the
Feb 19, 2017, 7:31 PM
[ in reply to Basketball players tending to choose urban areas is a myth. ] |
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immediate 10k Clemson town when compared to any other major and many mid-major programs. Outside of the campus, it's a very tiny locale nearby. That's unique. But we also know what we can accomplish with unique.
I really appreciate the recruiting that Coach Brownell has done. I do think he's brought in some quality, committed players to the program then and now, and been on the plus side on the transfer circuit through the years.
Personally I think our basketball program is on the verge of something really special. It's going to take some new blood to get us there I'm pretty sure, but these recent investments in the guts of the program and the growing aura of the Paw are likely to raise the bar for the good. And there's a solid player foundation and a nice pipeline to keep it going.
Writing letters (USPS) will help, e-mails also. Physical letters take up physical space and have a greater impact than e-mail, but volume either way is key.
Go Tiger Basketball!
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Orange Blooded [3820]
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Coot!-#### liar.... wtph is wrong with you people?
Feb 19, 2017, 8:19 AM
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stop the effin' lying !!!!
1) East Lansing, Michigan is abutted to the capital of Michigan, Lansing - total population of both > 185,000
2) Waco, Texas, population 129,000
3) Spokane, Wshington, population 211,000
4) Lawrence, Kansas, population 91,000
go effin' eff yourself in the backside with a sideways telephone pole....
I have no idea why so-called fans think that lying -
whether explicit or implicit -
is somehow going to help Clemson's BBall program.
I hope that the mods send you to DSP-ville, and right dang soon...
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Orange Blooded [4754]
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Sorry Mrs. Brownell,
Feb 19, 2017, 9:07 AM
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I ain't no coot. I'm just tired of all the 'excuses" to keep Brownell after SEVEN uneventful years and continue this mediocrity we call Clemson mens basketball.
Good job googling populations but you missed the point completely. These locations are off the beaten path, which is excuse #236 for our lack of success. BTW no one cares about anything that happens in Michigan near the capital or not. If you care to look I've been on Tigernet 7 years longer than you Mr. wanna-be-a-moderator.
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Orange Blooded [3820]
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if you're tired of excuses, then come up with "answers", NOT
Feb 19, 2017, 10:36 AM
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knee-jerk simplifications....
you haven't sad one thing that the AD can take back to his desk
and start to implement that will change the culture at Clemson.
In the 47 years since they're ONLY Conference championship and since leaving the ACC
South Carolina has had 8 Head Football Coaches - and average tenure of 5.5 years -
just long enough to start coaching players that only they recruited.
They've NOT won another championship,
they've NOT been to a major bowl,
they've NOT even taken over their recruiting area from their in-state rival.
In a word, they SUCK.
What the @$*&^%&* did changing all those coaches do for them?
Not a G*O*D*F*O*R*S*A*K*E*N thing.
It hasn't changed their "culture" one iota,
and they still SUCK.
You want my attention and respect,
then come up with some creative answers
and stop repeating tired old themes that promise nothing....
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All-In [44293]
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You want solutions? Those are easy:
Feb 19, 2017, 11:54 AM
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1. Build and maintain top-level facilities. Thankfully, we just built nice facilities, but it was about 10-15 years after we should've. Now the challenge is to maintain them. We need to stay ahead of the curve in terms of trends in player and team amenities. This is huge for recruiting.
2. Attract a coach who is a proven winner at the high major level. It does not need to be a Pitino or Coach K, but it should be someone who has shown the ability to build and sustain a program. We tend to take a chance with mid-major coaches, and this is too risky in my opinion. We need a coach who players know of, who has the personality and skill needed to recruit well but also develop talent well.
3. Pay a competitive salary. Many people on TigerNet think we pay Brownell an exorbitant salary with a ridiculous buyout. We really don't pay him all that much when it comes to compensation. And large buyouts are becoming commonplace these days, unfortunately. If we want to get a coach who gives us a high likelihood of success, then we are going to have to pay more in the $2-$3 million a year range, not the $1-$1.5 million range we have been in lately.
4. Make it obvious that we care about basketball at Clemson. Stop with the ridiculous notion that by putting time and money and energy into basketball somehow makes us less of a football school. It doesn't. We can be rabid basketball fans and commit to having a great basketball program while still being known as a football school and competing for football championships. They can co-exist. We just need to get our minds right on this topic.
5. Have really great fan support. Yes, I know we have had times in our past where students camped out for tickets and Littlejohn was loud. That doesn't happen nearly enough though. Winning will help generate fan interest, but some of the support will have to come from fans while we build our program. I hope our fans are capable of this.
There you go. That's the roadmap. I still say that we can be a great program, but for the first time in our program's history, we have to try. We have fans who are pessimistic and lack belief that we can be great, but these fans are forgetting that we have never really committed to basketball at Clemson. We can't conclude that we will always be mediocre, when we have never really tried to be great. If we had tried and failed, I would understand - but we haven't. It's like complaining because you can't ride a bike, even though you've never practiced and taken off the training wheels.
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Orange Blooded [3820]
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this is a nice try BUT it's also simplistic....
Feb 19, 2017, 12:21 PM
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Dabo had neither #2 nor #3 when he was hired,
and we were just working on #1 (in progress).
The hardest thing for people to understand about Culture is
THAT IT CANNOT BE BOUGHT.
It happens 1 of 4 ways, and none are really about facilities though I agree they are a requisite -
either (a) it is inherited (i.e. Rock-chalk Jayhawk in Lawrence, Kansas),
either (b) the Coach brings it with him (i.e. Dabo being hired as lightning in a bottle),
either (c) the fans bring it with them (i.e. fan support continually outstrips results aka USuCk, Arkansas, lately Oregon),
or (d) tradition, stability, and culture are built over a long period of gradual success (i.e. FSU and Va Tech football).
But (c) doesn't guarantee anything and it's hard to create.
And (d) is typically tied to a one-time Coaching hire.
SO, really it typically comes down to a Coaching hire, when by firing someone you're saying you got it wrong previously.
Your road map is in your mind - it guarantees nothing and is built on the presumption
that we can do better now than we did before. Ask NC State how that's working out....
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All-In [44293]
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I don't think Brownell had the resources he needed.
Feb 19, 2017, 12:36 PM
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However, that doesn't change the fact that we are in year 7 and things have seemed to get stale.
Is it fair that he hasn't really gotten to benefit from the new facilities that he helped build? No, it's not. But I feel that Brownell has lost the fans and another year or two of similar results will cause even more people to check out on basketball at Clemson. What do we think Brownell's ceiling is? It's hard to say since he hasn't really had what he asked for until now, but my guess is that we won't be in the NCAA Tournament every year - and I feel that should be our minimum standard.
You're right, my roadmap doesn't guarantee anything, but it would sure give us a much better chance of having the kind of basketball success we have never had. We typically hire a mid-major coach who we hope does well, support him and the program halfway and/or inconsistently, and act upset when we don't have the success we want or offended when he leaves.
Then we conclude that Clemson can't be successful at basketball, because we're a football school not located in an urban area, and because we are viewed as a stepping stone job. What stupid logic!
You use Dabo as an example. He's a dynamic person and great recruiter, but it's no accident that our recruiting classes improved dramatically after we got the new facilities. He also got what he asked for from the administration, including even more facilities, a higher budget for assistant coach salaries, and additional support staff. And the wins and championships have followed. That is no accident.
Do you think we would have had the success we've had the last few years if we had not built those facilities, not given the coaches raises to keep their salaries competitive, and added the support staff Dabo needed for recruiting? I don't. Yet we expect basketball coaches to come in and magically turn us into a great program, but aren't willing to give them what they need.
My challenge to Clemson remains: support basketball in the above fashion. You've never done it before, so you don't know what is possible. Give it a chance, go "all in," and see what happens. I guarantee we will be very pleased with the results.
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Orange Blooded [3820]
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I absolutely support your enthusiasm and continual posts
Feb 19, 2017, 1:30 PM
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they are great,
and people need to see them.
I agree that Brownell did not have two things from Clemson he needed to be successful right off:
facilities and tradition.
Only one can be bought.
OP also left us in a lurch and without a pipeline of talent to fill the first 2 years for Brownell.
But Brad also suffered from "Indiana syndrome" - he, like a lot of older folks like me, thought
it was mostly about Coaching and not recruiting.
Dabo showed us how wrong that was.
Now we're looking for lightning in a bottle...
that might be a new Coach, or it might be 1 to 2 recruits that simply pull the program up
a la George Mason of several years back.
Once we win here consistently, I think things will get better - I just don't see it happening quickly.
I really and truly think the outlier was Bon Secours - as I've said, I don't think an on-campus arena is right
for bringing big-time crowds to big-time BBall at Clemson.
It's just too far from Greenville... which has population and Corporate support we need long-term...
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CU Guru [1321]
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Ames was more along my lines of thinking...
Feb 19, 2017, 1:41 PM
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Watching Iowa State play TCU last night, I thought to myself, "how is Iowa State almost always in the NCAA conversation and competitive in the XII"? I have never been to Ames, but I wouldn't think that it would be a place easy to recruit to.
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Legend [19822]
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Now that's a legitimate comp
Feb 19, 2017, 8:41 PM
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They've been good recently as they brought in an NBA grad who rebuilt the program. They've been good for stretches in the past as well when under Johnny Orr and Tim Floyd. But good coaches, like Greg McDermot have failed there as well.
Mississippi St. and Auburn would be as well, but their success has been sporadic as well.
When it comes to a population center, we're a fairly unique situation
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