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Orange Blooded [2221]
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The Bible is not a source of perfect knowledge
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May 14, 2024, 9:10 PM
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For example...
"But I tell you not to resist an evil person. If someone slaps you on your right cheek, turn to him the other also; if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well; and if someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles"
This is absurd. Nobody practices these things, and for good reason.
I don't say this to knock christians, but the idea that this is the word of a perfect, all knowing being.
Christians in this country clearly don't believe it anyway, else they'd be for open borders, not shutting them down.
I'm not advocating for open borders, just showing the hypocrisy.
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110%er [9132]
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Re: The Bible is not a source of perfect knowledge
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May 14, 2024, 9:56 PM
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that must be NIV lol
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Orange Blooded [2221]
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Re: The Bible is not a source of perfect knowledge
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May 15, 2024, 6:33 AM
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Sorry. Not enough thee’s and thou’s for you?
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CU Medallion [58861]
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The Bible has many errors and contradictions.
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May 14, 2024, 10:25 PM
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If you want to, you can rationalize them all away if you try hard enough. Personally, I see The Bible as a collection of writings that includes a mix of myth, profound truth, history, inspired wisdom, and propaganda, all crafted, changed and edited over time in an attempt to create and perpetuate a particular narrative. We don't have anything close to original manuscrpts. I find tremendous value, beauty, and comfort in it when viewed with that understanding.
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Orange Blooded [2221]
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Re: The Bible has many errors and contradictions.
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May 15, 2024, 6:35 AM
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Just curious what parts do you think contain truth?
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CU Medallion [58861]
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Re: The Bible has many errors and contradictions.
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May 15, 2024, 9:48 AM
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The part where the snake talked to Adam and Eve.
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Orange Blooded [2221]
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Re: The Bible has many errors and contradictions.
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May 15, 2024, 10:29 AM
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It was an honest question. I think it’s got nuggets of obvious truth but nothing divine.
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CU Medallion [58861]
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Whether or not it's divine is entirely a matter of opinion, and I won't argue
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May 15, 2024, 10:42 AM
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either way. It obviously reflects historical realities (people, places, events) in many places. Like I said, it's a mixture of truths and realities and myths and opinions. To me, that much is self-evident and not the least bit controversial. I understand, however, that everyone does not feel that way.
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Orange Blooded [2221]
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Re: Whether or not it's divine is entirely a matter of opinion, and I won't argue
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May 15, 2024, 11:47 AM
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I think it shows the evolution of humanity. The god it portrays goes from brutal to loving. Abraham was about to sacrifice his child for this god. Christians say this was a metaphor for Christ. They are putting a bandaid on it. The Jews didn’t and don’t see it that way.
We’ve just figured things out. I think the evidence we see in nature and with humanity points to the human race being the highest life forms, at least in this universe.
Jesus, or the people behind his story, were enlightened. There were a lot of people before and a lot since that have changed the world for the better. Doesn’t mean it came from some god.
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CU Medallion [58861]
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I'm totally cool with that.
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May 15, 2024, 12:12 PM
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I happen to believe that God is the source of everything, but I can't prove it. It's just the result of my experience, and I'm totally cool with that as well.
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All-In [30121]
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Re: The Bible is not a source of perfect knowledge
May 14, 2024, 11:47 PM
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Jesus's words on the Mount are interesting. There's a lot of good theological discussion in there along the lines of faith vs. acts.
And there's this. "For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished."
The earth didn't disappear when Jesus died, and Heaven will never disappear. So what exactly did he mean by that statement?
Those topics aside, I see Jesus's words and examples as ideals to aspire to, not requirements. Since he was speaking as a Jew himself, Jesus full well knew that there is, and was, exactly a zero percent chance that anyone will ever live up the Law.
Even today, there is no expectation from Jews themselves to do that. For them, that's precisely why there is forgiveness from sin. Because sin cannot be avoided, whether it's intentional or unintentional.
Christians have a different understanding on all that with Original Sin. But the basic idea is the same. Sin cannot be avoided.
But for Jesus, I think, the End was coming. And it was imminent in his mind. And the End led to New Jerusalem and the Kingdom of Heaven that descended on earth. And everyone will be in it, whether they like it or not. Consider this verse:
Matt 5:19 "Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven."
You might be the least, or you might be the greatest, but either way you will be in the Kingdom of heaven.
Then there's this:
Matt 5:20 "For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.
This is an important line. Because the one thing that will keep from being in the KOH, even if you don't follow the Law (where you will get in, but be least), is a lack righteousness...to be like the Pharisees. That is, to teach the word of the Law but not obey the spirit of the Law. That was Jesus's beef, I believe. A lack of compassion.
Look what he says here:
5:16 "In the same way, let your light shine before others, that they may see your good deeds and glorify your Father in heaven."
He's telling the flock to be an example to others. To illustrate by your actions. To do unto others, etc.
So if you fail, that doesn't mean you didn't try. He's telling people to be nice.
5:21 "And anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell."
5:24 "First go and be reconciled to them; then come and offer your gift."
He's saying be kind first, then follow the letter.
>I don't say this to knock christians, but the idea that this is the word of a perfect, all knowing being.
I don't see any incompatibility with being asked to do the impossible, and being expected to fail. Jews and Christians live with that every day. It's the trying that's important.
>Christians in this country clearly don't believe it anyway...
That's pretty broad. I know lots of Christians who are very sacrificing and make good faith efforts to lead good lives all the time. My own wife is one of them.
I'm sure there are opposite examples, but every individual is different.
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Oculus Spirit [94384]
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I think this is number 4, maybe 5.
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May 15, 2024, 3:55 AM
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"Jesus's words on the Mount are interesting. There's a lot of good theological discussion in there along the lines of faith vs. acts.
And there's this. "For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished."
The earth didn't disappear when Jesus died, and Heaven will never disappear. So what exactly did he mean by that statement?"
It's a simple concept. Christ, as I've said half a dozen times here, was bound by the Mosaic Covenant, under the law. His task, being sent by God The Father, was to fulfill man's obligation to that covenant by living a perfect life as judged by God. At that point He would be sentenced to the death that we all deserve as payment for our sin(s).
"Until everything is accomplished,' equals, 'Living a sinless life and dying for the sins of man.'
The first phrase, "For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear," means no matter whatever else happens. He's saying that covenant is binding, immutable and the only possible way mankind can fulfill on his own it is to die and pay the price for himself.
The choices for man are simple and laid out. Either you submit to Christ to be redeemed and believe His blood was the worthy sacrifice or you pay the penalty for not abiding sinless.
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"Matt 5:19 "Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven."
You might be the least, or you might be the greatest, but either way you will be in the Kingdom of heaven."
Jesus was speaking to His disciples, according to Matt 5:1 and 2. He was not addressing the general public. That is not a general statement that everyone will go to Heaven unless one ignores context.
I believe many there were followers just for bread and circus. He generally spoke to the public in parables and explained those to his apostles in private after they separated from the general public.
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The ten commandments boil down to exactly what Jesus expects of believers today. A portion of the 10 address our relationship to God. The remaining address our relationship to other humans. Nothing changed for His new commandments were just as simple. Love God with all your being and love your fellowman as you love yourself. It's not complicated.
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The function of the Temple and Law for the Pharisees was a business from which they gained money and political power. Some sold animals for sacrifice in the court yard and took them out the back of the building and sold them again without shedding any blood. They refused to feed their parents while for show they paid tithes of the mints of their garden to prove their righteousness.
They taught that the blood of bulls and goats actually covered sin. That is very unlike the ancient Hebrews, King David for example, who in Psa 51 plainly contradicted that belief. I just posted the chapter a couple days ago. Surely folks here read it.
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The carnal mind fails to comprehend a simple concept. When Jesus died in the flesh He also died in spirit. "My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me..." Psa 22 vs 1. That was Jesus' words on the cross also recorded in the Gospels of Matt 27:46. While His physical death lasted some 3 days His spiritual death was a simple separation from God.
Spiritual death is defined as 'Separation from God.' There is no time assigned for to that period, I believe it occurred in just an instant in our time. You've said you think Psa 22 wasn't a prophesy of Christ's time on the cross. However, if you try to read it as if it is then some understand will attend the knowledge you gain. Jesus was not quoting Psalms, David was prophesying of His death and the coming kingdom which would follow. Give it a try, at least.
The purpose of what I'm saying is to try and explain that when we Christian face the fact that we are continuously sinful we can find consolation in knowing that Jesus' blood is eternal for He died in spirit for us so that we won't die in spirit for our sinful nature and even if we are committing presumptuous sin. That's a transition...
There is no time in eternity, events do not proceed nor do they follow. Christ Blood is before God eternally. In this world, we live in sin. As we grow in God's Spirit toward adulthood God reveals more and more towers of sin in our hearts. It's His way of spoon feeding us the truth rather than overwhelming us by revealing all the darkness within at one time.
It is humbling to be in full fellowship with God and to know that you live in sin. Ask me how I know.
A man can't 'live a good life.' That's frustrating. Our best effort's include being constantly aware of God, respecting Him and submitting to His will. No one ever does it 100%, if one of us could Jesus would not have been sent to die for all. I have to read God's Word everyday to stay in the same zip code hemisphere of being submissive to God.
How, then, many sins does it take to separate a man from God? Just one.
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All-In [30121]
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Re: I think this is number 4, maybe 5.
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May 15, 2024, 12:17 PM
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ClemsonTiger1988®
>The first phrase, "For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear," means no matter whatever else happens.
So you’re reading that phrase as figurative rather than literal. I can see it in that light, though it is an interesting figure of speech in that it implies and end to Heaven. Which I would take as ‘never.’ That would put Jesus as saying, effectively,
“Never”, [will anything] disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished."
And which as you noted, does put the onus on what “everything is accomplished’ means. But my question would be, did Jesus mean his death was ‘everything is accomplished,’ or that the End of the World, and arrival of new Jerusalem, was ‘everything is accomplished.’
I understand your interpretation to be his D&R, but I think there’s also room to see ‘everything’ as the arrival of the End Time. I would imagine there were some early Jewish Christians who saw it that way – those who believed Jesus was the Messiah, but still chose to follow the Law, waiting until Jerusalem descends.
Which also leads us into our oft visited discussion of ‘fulfill’ as periodic, or ‘fulfill’ as final. Fulfill as a contract, or fulfill as a marital obligation? 😊
>Jesus was speaking to His disciples, according to Matt 5:1 and 2
That is an excellent observation 88, and why I enjoy these discussions so much. I’ve never looked at it that way, but that does seem to be what the text says, explicitly. I always assumed he was teaching the crowds, but maybe not, just as you say. I’ll have to reread that in a new light, now.
>You've said you think Psa 22 wasn't a prophesy of Christ's time on the cross. However, if you try to read it as if it is then some understand will attend the knowledge you gain. Jesus was not quoting Psalms, David was prophesying of His death and the coming kingdom which would follow. Give it a try, at least.
I absolutely will. You caught me in a moment of weakness a while back agreeing with you. 😊
I will re-read it in that light and see how it strikes me. As I said, depending on what day you ask me, I might waver back and forth.
I always enjoy your insights and perspective!
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Oculus Spirit [94384]
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Re: I think this is number 4, maybe 5.
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May 15, 2024, 1:55 PM
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"_>The first phrase, "For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear," means no matter whatever else happens.
So you’re reading that phrase as figurative rather than literal. I can see it in that light, though it is an interesting figure of speech in that it implies and end to Heaven. Which I would take as ‘never.’ That would put Jesus as saying, effectively,
“Never”, [will anything] disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished."_"
Excuse the quotation marks upon quotation marks.
If we believe, as you say, that Heaven will never pass away then consider that phrase as being the less earthy version of, 'When pigs fly,' or 'When Hell freezes over.'
Jesus' primary duty was to preach the coming kingdom (spiritual) to the Hebrew people. That came to be when He rose from the grave and showed Himself as risen to Mary Magdalene, I believe. Although it's granted that the Kingdom may have been founded many centuries before in the Garden. I believe that is true, however, no one had access to God's new Kingdom until Jesus died, imo. If you want to discuss this further I'd be delighted.
Thank you for the kind words. I enjoy your post more than I can say and I'm prone to say a lot. 
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All-In [30121]
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Re: I think this is number 4, maybe 5.
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May 15, 2024, 2:23 PM
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>Although it's granted that the Kingdom may have been founded many centuries before in the Garden. I believe that is true, however, no one had access to God's new Kingdom until Jesus died, imo. If you want to discuss this further I'd be delighted.
That would be a great topic but I have to admit I'd be completely unable to add anything at this point. So it would kind of be a one-sided discussion. Let me do some Bible research and put it on the list.
I'd love to hear your interpretation anytime you'd like to share, I'd just be out of my depth on that one till I bone up on it a bit  ">">">
Gotta do my homework, ya know!
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Oculus Spirit [94384]
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Further support for my position on Jesus' teaching those who belong to...
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May 17, 2024, 6:08 AM
[ in reply to Re: I think this is number 4, maybe 5. ] |
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God's Kingdom is in Luke Chapter 8:
After using the parable of the sower, seed and various conditions of the environment in which the seeds were dispersed...
"9 And his disciples asked him, saying, What might this parable be?
10 And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand."
You haven't (yet) been harnessed by the pharisees with the rules, regulations and restrictions of the Law. It was inconceivable to the average Hebrew to comprehend such radical freedoms. They'd spent centuries under foreign rule and most of their teachers were between the sheets with heathen overlords.
These parables are revealed so easily to us today that we take them for granted and find it almost impossible to imagine what the Hebrew of that day thought about the covenant we've grow up in.
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Oculus Spirit [94384]
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Re: Further support for my position on Jesus' teaching those who belong to...
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May 17, 2024, 8:23 PM
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Fordtunate Son, forgot to tag.
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All-In [30121]
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Re: Further support for my position on Jesus' teaching those who belong to...
May 18, 2024, 12:31 AM
[ in reply to Further support for my position on Jesus' teaching those who belong to... ] |
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ClemsonTiger1988®
>These parables are revealed so easily to us today that we take them for granted and find it almost impossible to imagine what the Hebrew of that day thought about the covenant we've grow up in.
I think you're absolutely correct about that. In his time and place, Jesus had to be a breath of fresh air to the masses, and a serious threat the powers that be, too.
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Oculus Spirit [94384]
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Even furthermore,...
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May 18, 2024, 5:37 AM
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"38 And if he shall come in the second watch, or come in the third watch, and find them so, blessed are those servants.
39 And this know, that if the goodman of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched, and not have suffered his house to be broken through.
40 Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not.
41 Then Peter said unto him, Lord, speakest thou this parable unto us, or even to all?"
There is a certain amount of information which a man without God's Spirit will not retain. Akin to that is the depth of the truths which though they may linger in a while in the mind will not be permanent.
It is my proposition that this seed falls on stony ground when a 'good man,' seeks understanding and retention of the concepts Jesus presented. Even on 'fertile soil,' the Word will perish without a constant watering of God's Word (HINT) but those concepts are permanently written on the heart of those who are born again.
Fordtunate Son
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Orange Blooded [2221]
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Re: The Bible is not a source of perfect knowledge
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May 15, 2024, 7:02 AM
[ in reply to Re: The Bible is not a source of perfect knowledge ] |
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"Those topics aside, I see Jesus's words and examples as ideals to aspire to, not requirements. Since he was speaking as a Jew himself, Jesus full well knew that there is, and was, exactly a zero percent chance that anyone will ever live up the Law."
But is that what Jesus meant? Or did he literally mean these as requirements? We are looking at this in a modern context where turning the other cheek and giving your tunic also can't possibly be literal commands.
Do they even make sense as ideals to aspire to? Stealing or assaulting someone are actions worthy of punishment, not to be entertained.
"Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven."
"For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven."
This seems to be a bit of a contradiction. The writer put these statements back to back, so it's hard to fathom him making that kind of error. If you don't follow all the commands of the law you will get in the kingdom but be called least. However if you don't live up to a certain standard which surpasses the pharisees you will not get in...which is it?
"I don't see any incompatibility with being asked to do the impossible, and being expected to fail. Jews and Christians live with that every day. It's the trying that's important."
Again, this is not meant to be knock against christians for not being perfect, but simply to show that nobody takes these words as serious. Not even the most die hard christian would think to chase down someone who steals their wallet and make sure they didn't drop their credit cards as well.
"
That's pretty broad. I know lots of Christians who are very sacrificing and make good faith efforts to lead good lives all the time. My own wife is one of them."
Broad statement yes but probably covers 90% of christians in this country anyway. Take a stroll over to the main board around election time and it's quite obvious. The mantra is god and country, not love and compassion.
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Orange Blooded [2221]
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Re: The Bible is not a source of perfect knowledge
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May 15, 2024, 1:05 PM
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>But is that what Jesus meant? Or did he literally mean these as requirements?
Those are completely legit questions, and I suppose only Jesus knew what he meant. My interpretation is based on the Jewish (since Jesus was Jewish) idea that it is impossible to achieve perfection in the Law, and so the very most one can do is try. But, that is just my interpretation, and I’m certainly not Jesus.
>Do they even make sense as ideals to aspire to?
That’s another pretty big question. Specific words aside, I get the general feel from Jesus’s talks that he was/is very much against Legalism. He actually follows in a long line of prophets all through the OT preaching that very same message.
It’s the very same argument our Founding Fathers had over the Bill of Rights: “Once you write down specific items, some people will assume those are the only ones that apply.” Jesus and the earlier prophets consistently say “Don’t focus so much on what Moses wrote, but on what he didn’t write – the everything else.” Above all, be compassionate, not a ‘rules lawyer.’
So as to Jesus’s specific examples, I’m not sure if he was speaking figurately, or literally. But I think his overarching message was to be nice, by whatever means.
>...which is it?
It’s a complicated passage, which is why it caught my attention. I’ll have to ponder it a bit more, putting on my ‘Jesus as a first century jew’ hat, but what I think he was saying was that the Law won’t get you into Heaven, but it will determine your status once you’re there.
Now, that’s completely contradictory to modern Christianity I think, because the Law has very little function in Christian understanding today. And Pauline Christianity gives the Law almost no credence at all. But Jesus wasn’t Paul, and when Jesus said that, Paul was still a jew himself. So we have to look deeper than what Paul later thought, after Jesus’s D&R.
From my earlier answer, I think it comes back to compassion. That’s what Jesus harped on. Even more than personal salvation, I think. He only saved one guy I think, the guy on the mat, just to show he could do it. But it seems almost every message he had somehow involved being compassionate to others.
It’s very complicated to me, and difficult to look through with the lens of the time, rather than the lens of today. I’m gonna have to re-read all that stuff again to suss out exactly what I think of it.
>Not even the most die hard christian would think to chase down someone who steals their wallet and make sure they didn't drop their credit cards as well.
Lol, very true. The way I read stuff like that is “how close can you get to that (granted, impossible) ideal. Can you stop to ask yourself, “Why is this person stealing? Do they have a need in their life? Food? Etc.” It’s very hard to do. Do I call the cops on them or let them go? That was the central question of Les Mis, btw. Law at all costs, or law only when needed?
>The mantra is god and country, not love and compassion.
It was a tough pill in Jesus’s time too. Compassion is not easy, and pretty rare. Overcoming one’s own ego and own desires is a monumental task sometimes. And desire can be a bottomless pit. Even in the richest country in the world, some folks never seem to be satiated.
On an tangential note, I've ironically had business ventures fall through because those same types of folks want all or none. And I'll ask, "As much as you want this, you'll take nothing rather than something? So, a 90/10 split is acceptable to you, but a 60/40 split is not? That is, you'll take 90% of an icing on the cake deal but taking only 60% is beneath you? We are some curious creatures. As I've said, I'm fascinated by how the human mind works, and what it prioritizes.
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All-In [30121]
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Re: The Bible is not a source of perfect knowledge
May 15, 2024, 1:06 PM
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Forgot to tag you
The Big Dog®
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Re: The Bible is not a source of perfect knowledge
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May 15, 2024, 9:29 PM
[ in reply to Re: The Bible is not a source of perfect knowledge ] |
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It just seems to be a very strange idea no matter what context you are in, and not something anyone actually practices.
I know I'm just repeating myself here, but maybe Jesus just had some weird ideas.
That of course can't be a possibility if you read the Bible with the idea that everything it says, and everything Jesus said, was the perfect word of god.
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All-In [30121]
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Re: The Bible is not a source of perfect knowledge
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May 15, 2024, 10:13 PM
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It's certainly an "All-In" type idea, but Jesus seemed to be an All-In kinda guy. Remember that he basically said "Drop your current life and spread this word." That might have meant leaving your family, selling your possessions, and even not burying your own relatives. So extremes were not an issue to him.
But, if he felt the End was imminent, in the back of his mind he may have been thinking "you won't have to do any of this for very long, because everything is about to change."
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Orange Blooded [2221]
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Re: The Bible is not a source of perfect knowledge
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May 16, 2024, 6:33 AM
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Yes! Another strange, difficult command to digest.
He actually said you must “hate” your family.
And of course the modern Christian says well he couldn’t have meant that literally…
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All-In [30121]
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Re: The Bible is not a source of perfect knowledge
May 16, 2024, 12:01 PM
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It's pretty shocking, granted. And a mystery. Short of a translational error, it certainly is counter to the overall message of "love your neighbor, etc." It's so different that it kind of makes me feel we're missing some context somewhere, but I don't know what that might be.
Luke 14:25 "Large crowds were traveling with Jesus, and turning to them he said: 26 “If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters—yes, even their own life—such a person cannot be my disciple."
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CU Medallion [58861]
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My wife too, and personally, I struggle with the term "Christian", as it seems
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May 15, 2024, 11:30 AM
[ in reply to Re: The Bible is not a source of perfect knowledge ] |
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it means different things to different people. I have always considerd myself a Christian, being raised in the Baptist church and attending an Episcopal church as an adult, but I don't fully accept or embrace everything they do. Having said that, most Christians I know are wonderful people.
My biggest problem, still, is the idea that a loving God created us in a way that he knew would result in most of us burning in hell for eternity when it was completely unnecessary, or that the only way to avoid such a fate was to accept a doctrine that didn't even exist until 2000 years ago, and most of the world didn't know about until hundreds of years later. There are problems with that which nobody can explain without avoiding the question and dancing all around it.
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Orange Blooded [3133]
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Re: The Bible is not a source of perfect knowledge
May 15, 2024, 2:29 PM
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Isn't this about not seeking revenge? How do you connect it to open borders?
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Orange Blooded [2221]
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Re: The Bible is not a source of perfect knowledge
May 15, 2024, 9:31 PM
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Isn't the whole reason for shutting down the border to focus on our own people and resources? That doesn't sound like loving your neighbor as your yourself.
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Orange Blooded [3133]
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Re: The Bible is not a source of perfect knowledge
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May 16, 2024, 5:42 PM
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I still don't see what that has to do with a command not to seek revenge.
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Orange Blooded [2221]
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Re: The Bible is not a source of perfect knowledge
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May 18, 2024, 11:03 AM
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Giving someone more when you they take something from you is not about revenge.
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Orange Blooded [2200]
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Most Christians are hypocrites, just like everyone else is a hypocrite....
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May 15, 2024, 8:11 PM
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At some level, we all don't live up to what we "preach".
But the passage you're talking about is talking about revenge, and not needing to seek revenge. I think you're mis-reading the meaning.
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Orange Blooded [2221]
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Re: Most Christians are hypocrites, just like everyone else is a hypocrite....
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May 15, 2024, 9:33 PM
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The point isn't to call christians hypocrites. I think they are just so ingrained in the idea that the bible is the word of god that they ignore the issues with the text and some of the confusing things Jesus supposedly said.
Jesus is not here to give us the meaning. You don't have his actual words, or his explanation of what the words mean. You have someone's copy of a copy of a copy of what someone else recorded that Jesus said.
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Orange Blooded [3133]
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Re: Most Christians are hypocrites, just like everyone else is a hypocrite....
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May 19, 2024, 10:32 AM
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You're not breaking any news or new ground with the "copy of a copy" stuff. Christians believe the Bible, as we have it, is the inspired word of God. A believer's faith isn't diminished by "copy of a copy" arguments.
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Orange Blooded [2221]
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Re: Most Christians are hypocrites, just like everyone else is a hypocrite....
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May 19, 2024, 10:53 AM
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Ok fair enough. But, the context has changed. Things Jesus said to his audience in the first century may have meant something different than what it means to somebody in the modern world.
Like the passage in the OP. Basically if someone steals from you give them something else also. NOBODY practices that.
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Orange Blooded [3133]
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Re: Most Christians are hypocrites, just like everyone else is a hypocrite....
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May 19, 2024, 12:23 PM
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Believers see the point Jesus was trying to make about anger and revenge. Jesus also said "better to pluck out your eye" but no believing person takes that literally anymore than they do "Anyone who would come to me must hate is father and mother." These are spiritual truths Jesus was saying. Spiritual truths, that according to Paul, the natual man considers foolishness.
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CU Guru [1159]
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Re: Most Christians are hypocrites, just like everyone else is a hypocrite....
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May 19, 2024, 12:18 PM
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Where do differing copies have contradictions?
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CU Guru [1159]
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Re: Most Christians are hypocrites, just like everyone else is a hypocrite....
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May 19, 2024, 1:03 PM
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Jesus sweating blood
Jesus being angry vs compassionate to leper he healed
end of mark
stoning of the woman / Jesus drawing in the dirt
To name a few.
I'm curious, are you not aware that there have been changes over time? or they just don't matter in your view?
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Orange Blooded [3133]
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Re: Most Christians are hypocrites, just like everyone else is a hypocrite....
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May 19, 2024, 3:32 PM
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Help me out here....where is the contradiction surrounding Jesus sweating blood?
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CU Guru [1159]
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Re: Most Christians are hypocrites, just like everyone else is a hypocrite....
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May 19, 2024, 4:09 PM
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It’s one of many things scribes added/changed. You’ll only see it depending on the manuscript you have.
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Orange Blooded [3133]
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Re: Most Christians are hypocrites, just like everyone else is a hypocrite....
May 19, 2024, 7:16 PM
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Where is the contradiction?
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CU Guru [1159]
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Re: Most Christians are hypocrites, just like everyone else is a hypocrite....
May 19, 2024, 7:31 PM
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That particular one is just an addition, why are you cherry picking?
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Orange Blooded [3133]
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Re: Most Christians are hypocrites, just like everyone else is a hypocrite....
May 20, 2024, 5:46 PM
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So what are you arguing....that a detail must be present in all tellings or descriptions of an event for the detail to be true? As for cherry picking, I'm using an example you offerred.
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CU Guru [1159]
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Re: Most Christians are hypocrites, just like everyone else is a hypocrite....
May 20, 2024, 9:11 PM
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The point is that the bible was added too and removed from by scribes. There is unequivocal evidence for that.
You said it's inspired, so are the changes inspired too?
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Hall of Famer [24581]
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See if I have this right:
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May 16, 2024, 1:06 AM
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Jesus said to present a left cheek to one who has slapped the right.
This means have open borders.
So, a Christian not for open borders = hypocrite.
So, no one practices that command.
I understand the purpose behind the effort, but you have work to do on that one.
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Orange Blooded [2221]
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Re: See if I have this right:
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May 16, 2024, 6:35 AM
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If someone tries to come into your country, offer them a place to stay in your own house.
Sounds about the same yes.
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Hall of Famer [24581]
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Re: See if I have this right:
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May 16, 2024, 10:52 AM
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That hole is getting deeper.
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Orange Blooded [2221]
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Re: See if I have this right:
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May 16, 2024, 1:05 PM
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It’s absurd I know.
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Orange Blooded [2221]
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Re: See if I have this right:
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May 16, 2024, 6:36 AM
[ in reply to See if I have this right: ] |
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Like I said, I’m not trying to call anyone a hypocrite because they don’t welcome illegal aliens with open arms.
The problem is in claiming this is the word of god, when you clearly don’t take it serious yourself.
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Orange Blooded [2200]
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Setting aside the scripture you quoted when opening this thread....
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May 16, 2024, 11:46 AM
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I agree with you that a lot of self-proclaimed Christians are very much hypocrites when it comes to immigration (not just illegal, but also legal). There are many people who come from broken countries, trying to escape violence & drug gangs & poverty, who are coming to the US for help. And for the most part, conservative Christians turn their backs on these people, when I think it's clear that Jesus would do the opposite.
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110%er [9132]
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Re: The Bible is not a source of perfect knowledge
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May 16, 2024, 1:16 PM
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Give not that which is holy unto the dogs
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Oculus Spirit [94384]
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Even the dogs eat the crumbs which the children drop from the table.
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May 17, 2024, 6:09 AM
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Go easy now, brother.
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