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Legend [16769]
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Do you believe in Predestination?
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Nov 23, 2023, 9:23 PM
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I see a great thread below about Jesus. People responding to that thread have much more knowledge of the Bible than I do. I want to get their take on Predestination. I am Presbyterian and was brought up believing in it or at least some form of it. I believe we DO have a choice but God knows what I will do before I do it.
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CU Guru [1213]
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Re: Do you believe in Predestination?
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Nov 23, 2023, 9:53 PM
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Do I believe it? No, in that, I'm not religious. But do I think the Bible teaches it? It appears to yes.
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Legend [18073]
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Re: Do you believe in Predestination?
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Nov 23, 2023, 10:20 PM
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Another great concept that no one really can wrap their heads around.
Do you believe predestination applies to people (a specific person or to all persons) or events? Does the anti-Christ have the free will to be, or not to be, the anti-Christ? Can the Great Tribulation be avoided though God states it will happen? Does Knowing what will happen to people, cultures, nations, and the world itself mean that free will does not exist for it to happen the way God knows it will happen?
I have heard people argue that if a person is going to be saved then there is no need to share the Gospel of Christ, because God has already determined the person will be saved (Calvinism). So, in effect, Jesus says to go, tell, and baptize but many shrink from that directive because if they are going to be saved, well, they will be saved whether "I tell them or not".
I have heard people argue they can lose their salvation (Arminianism) when Christ says those who are saved are "sealed" by the Holy Spirit for the Day of Salvation. And if one can lose their salvation, how would they ever get it back again once the seal is broken?
God gives us the gift of life and I believe it is true that God interacts with creation each day. With people, each day, as well. We can "listen" to Him or ignore Him. Is it predestination that I have those moments where I interact with God in unmistakable ways, or just Him arriving on the scene because I have called to Him for help, support, or guidance?
One can wrap their mind around these kind of things (predestination) and waste so much time and energy trying to explain what they will never be able to explain.
God loves you. Love Him back. Love your neighbor as you love yourself. You will do well.
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Orange Blooded [2261]
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Re: Do you believe in Predestination?
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Nov 24, 2023, 6:53 AM
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“God loves you. Love Him back. Love your neighbor as you love yourself. You will do well.”
If only that was what Christianity was about….
I’ve often wondered to myself, even when I was a practicing Christian, why we didn’t go hang out at the bars and places where the “lost” hung out, like Jesus did.
I really don’t see any Christians going and telling anymore. Even those who are not Calvinist and believe that the gospel should be spread, seem to just sit in their social club aka church and only witness to those that are willing to straggle in themselves.
Get your life straight, and then we’ll accept you seems to be the motto.
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Orange Blooded [2261]
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Re: Do you believe in Predestination?
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Nov 24, 2023, 6:55 AM
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And when I say “go and tell”, I don’t mean standing on a corner with a sign saying repent or burn.
I mean genuinely befriending and taking an interest in someone’s life. Loving them unconditionally…
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Legend [18073]
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Re: Do you believe in Predestination?
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Nov 24, 2023, 9:00 AM
[ in reply to Re: Do you believe in Predestination? ] |
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I am not familiar with any scripture reference that says Jesus went to bars. I am familiar with references which mentioned that He was invited into homes of "sinners" and he ate and drank with them there, and that is how He became known as a "glutton" and "wine bibber".
Christians still do that today. Some share Jesus in the manner of John the Baptist, from the local crossing. Some are more about mingling with people, like Jesus. They do it in everyday lives of people - at work, in public, and in their homes. I regularly participate in cookouts and such when the opportunity is given. But I'm not going into a bar to Share the Gospel of Jesus. It is like Christians are picking a fight if they do it from a street corner so, just stop for a moment and imagine what it would be like if they went into a bar to do that.
"Get your life straight, and then we’ll accept you seems to be the motto."
I cannot disagree that the Pharisee in Christians does show itself too often in life. Jesus said, "Go and tell." Yet, too many church people live as though their church signs take care of that responsibility because they place "Come and Hear" for all to see. There is a disconnect, I agree.
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Orange Blooded [2261]
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Re: Do you believe in Predestination?
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Nov 24, 2023, 9:47 AM
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I think it’s safe to say that if there were first century bars Jesus hung out in them.
I’m not saying go there to spread the gospel, but rather to just hang out with people. Be a friend to the guy at the bar drinking his pain away. That seems to be the mindset Jesus had.
Not the mindset that Christians carry which is “I don’t hang out in those places with those people”.
Imagine if the same people you saw in the pews on Sunday morning you saw at the bars on Saturday night.
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Legend [18073]
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Re: Do you believe in Predestination?
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Nov 24, 2023, 7:43 PM
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I hear what you are saying but, can't get there. No doubt Jesus "hung out" with sinners. The deformed, the leprous, the ill and the broken spirited. Those that the Pharisees claimed sinners and under punishment of God. Therefore, they could not, would not, defile themselves by entertaining them, much less shake their hand. Jesus went to their homes. He did not go to their bars.
Besides, why can't I just ask the person who wants to drink their sorrows away to come to my house for a sit down/cookout without the intoxicating drink? Or to get a burger and a coke? Christians mingle with people who are not of the Christian faith everyday. The conversations outside of a bar setting alone can become less than ideal... no need to add drink to the mix (pun intended). Sometimes we do have to put down our cross, so to speak. Doesn't mean we don't care.
The gospel is active in word and in deed, for sure. But if I go to a bar with someone so they can drink away their problems, without sharing Jesus with them, I would be indulging their "gospel" as an acceptable alternative to Jesus. I might also be a recovering alcoholic and have no business whatsoever being there under duress from the past wanting to rule over me in the present.
What if I am recovering from a pornographic lifestyle, should I go to the beach and indulge my friend who finds it "harmless" to admire the string bikini's that abound?
Christians are people who are recovering from their own faults and insecurities in life. Indulging them in others in the manner you suggest does not work for either. I would come pick you up at the bar, so you don't drive under the influence of alcohol. But, I would not deliver you to the bar so you might later be able to say, when giving an answer for something that went wrong, "Well, he brought me here." Nope.
So, what now?
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Orange Blooded [2261]
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Re: Do you believe in Predestination?
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Nov 24, 2023, 8:00 PM
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In Luke chapter 7 when the Pharisees call Jesus a glutton and drunk it sounds like they are in a public place. But who says you’d have to drink at the bar? Or if you do that you have to indulge?
Anyways I think we understand each other, and I agree completely about alcoholics and the need to stay away from it, however that raises and interesting question….
When Jesus turned water into wine, how was he not tempting people to sin?
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Legend [18073]
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Re: Do you believe in Predestination?
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Nov 24, 2023, 8:14 PM
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"When Jesus turned water into wine, how was he not tempting people to sin?"
The first miracle, a wedding feast miracle. Indeed, the Scripture teaches that drunkenness is sin. It doesn't say that drinking is.... though I would say it is clear that it teaches the best path to walk avoids it. And the best advice it is... who knows whether they will become a victim of alcohol should they have that first drink? No one. So, don't. But I do stand apart from most bible teachers about drinking, in and of itself, being sin. I think Jesus does too. Otherwise, why did He make the wine? (No, it was not "grape juice")
The wine was for a celebration just as it will be when we sit with Him at the table in heaven... the Marriage Feast of the Lamb.
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Orange Blooded [3171]
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Re: Do you believe in Predestination?
Jan 27, 2024, 5:55 AM
[ in reply to Re: Do you believe in Predestination? ] |
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"Imagine if the same people you saw in the pews on Sunday morning you saw at the bars on Saturday night."
Then the narrative from some here would change from "do-nothing Christians" to "hypocrite Christians."
You make sweeping generalizations about Christians. To be fair, we proabably all make those type of statements. Here's one - I'd agree that "most" Christians could probably do more to reach the unbelieving. I think many (generalization) try to live their lives (imperfectly) in a way which glorifies God. Some serve in austere locations to reach unbelievers, some serve local shelters, crisis pregnancy centers, etc. I could go on and on about the good my church tries to do. I'm sure we're no exception. My wife and I purchase gift cards and distribute them to the homeless. We pray over them - with them - and give them a card which will provide them with a meal (Chic-fil-A, Subway, etc.). It's a small thing and we could do more than we do. (I'm reluctant to mention this because we're not supposed to boast of the good we do but since you don't know me, maybe its okay.) The point is there are Christians who seek to do at least some good for others. You can always find something someone didn't do that you think they should have. My wife and I don't hang out in bars, brothels, or crack houses to reach people - not that those people are less valuable or worthy to hear the Good News. If I felt God was leading me to enter a place like that, I hope I'd be obedient.
To your example of the guy at the bar, if not to spread the Gospel, what would you expect a Christian to provide him? Would you really expect a Christian, over any other person, to sit down next to a guy (stranger) and begin to share personal details of their life? Couldn't you do that?
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Hall of Famer [24633]
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A few years ago I would have said no.
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Nov 23, 2023, 11:07 PM
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There are some NT comments pointing in that direction, but I would have said they were speaking of foreknowledge in a place where time does not exist. I wouldn't propose that now. Just IMO.
We have all seen that some people cannot grasp concepts from other cultures. As one of many examples, we assumed that people in Iraq and Afghanistan were individualists who would embrace western values, religious freedom, and secular self governance. We saw the inked fingers. That lasted the 90 seconds it took to give themselves back to the authoritarianism they knew. Explanations and opportunity do not seem to overcome that.
The longer time goes on, the more I think some people cannot grasp the concept of a sacrificial, atoning God. Whether this was foreknown at the individual level, or actually predetermined, I dont think we can say. All I will say is that it seems to be the case.
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CU Guru [1213]
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Re: A few years ago I would have said no.
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Nov 24, 2023, 8:42 AM
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> The longer time goes on, the more I think some people cannot grasp the concept of a sacrificial, atoning God. Whether this was foreknown at the individual level, or actually predetermined, I dont think we can say. All I will say is that it seems to be the case.
True, it couldn't possibly be that CUintulsa is wrong here. Obviously, ancient religious text is clear and the majority of the world are clearly evil idiots who deserve eternal punishment for "not getting it" the way CUintulsa does.
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Oculus Spirit [94487]
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Yes, but folks can't get past trying to see from God's perspective.
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Nov 24, 2023, 1:08 AM
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He is The Eternal God. He is not subject to time. He isn't a time lord who travels back and forth in time, He sits outside time seeing the beginning, existence and end of time as a point on a line, one which has no dimensions, one which is just a place holder. He saw the end before the beginning.
We can't see past the end of our noses. We pretend we can evaluate God by assuming His perspective but our mind can not comprehend eternity. We have a word to describe it, 'infinity.' We form equations which include the symbol of that word and assume that everyone knows what it is. Everyone does but none comprehend the magnitude of infinite. It's just a nice word to avoid the fact that we are clueless.
The Bible plainly tells us we are predestined and suggest that the lost are too. Our mistake is thinking that predestination determines our fates. It does not.
God sees what we are going to do, we don't do what we do because God sees it. It's like a bank robber blaming the witnesses for the robbery. It won't hold up in man's court and it won't hold up in God's either.
That is the single most way to understanding how predestination and free will exist. It's not complicated. It's so simple people overthink it when they try to see God's perspective.
If a meteorologist forecast a Cat 5 hurricane and told people to run for their lives, would you blame him/her for the dead floating in the streets. NO, BIG FAT NO! The only fault for the loss of lives would be those who didn't believe in the danger of a Cat 5 Cane.
There is a reckoning coming for this world. What you believe about predestination means nothing on the final exam. There's only one question and only one right answer. There are thousand of examples for us to see which explains this.
It will be a simple test:
Did you accept Jesus as your Savior and Lord?
Check One Box: YES [ ] NO [ ]
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Legend [16769]
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Re: Yes, but folks can't get past trying to see from God's perspective.
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Nov 24, 2023, 5:26 AM
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Thanks for the comment about “time”. I believe time does not exits in god’s world like it does on earth. In fact I believe when I die I will immediately be re-united with my children in heaven even though they are still living on earth. In earth’s time I will get there before they do.
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Oculus Spirit [94487]
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I appreciate that.
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Nov 24, 2023, 7:57 AM
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I had someone tell me we'd meet again at the Pearly Gated. I laughed and told him straight up. "If my dear grandmother gets between me and Jesus or I'll cut her a flip."
That's old folks talk for 'I'll run through you so fast it will flip you head over heels.'
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CU Guru [1213]
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Re: Yes, but folks can't get past trying to see from God's perspective.
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Nov 24, 2023, 8:45 AM
[ in reply to Yes, but folks can't get past trying to see from God's perspective. ] |
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> It will be a simple test:
> Did you accept Jesus as your Savior and Lord?
> Check One Box: YES [ ] NO [ ]
Can you at least make it more honest?
Did you accept this Jesus who you weren't able to tell was even there? Did you accept this on blind faith in a text that you can't verify? Oh, no? Sorry, eternal torture for you.
Where is this Jesus you keep talking about, CT88? He seems awfully absent, considering how important you make him out to be.
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Legend [16769]
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Re: Yes, but folks can't get past trying to see from God's perspective.
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Nov 24, 2023, 9:26 AM
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Yes I certainly do believe even though I have seen or touched him or her. It’s called faith.
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CU Guru [1213]
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Re: Yes, but folks can't get past trying to see from God's perspective.
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Nov 24, 2023, 9:30 AM
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That's fine, but if faith is all it takes, then how do you blame muslims? They have faith too?
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Legend [16769]
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Re: Yes, but folks can't get past trying to see from God's perspective.
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Nov 24, 2023, 9:38 AM
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I cannot judge other religions on what they believe. They may also have a path to salvation. I don’t know. But I do know my path is through Jesus.
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CU Guru [1213]
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Re: Yes, but folks can't get past trying to see from God's perspective.
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Nov 24, 2023, 9:45 AM
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That's totally fine.
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CU Medallion [59057]
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I would certainly blame the meteorologist if he could stop the cane
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Nov 24, 2023, 11:17 AM
[ in reply to Yes, but folks can't get past trying to see from God's perspective. ] |
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but didn't. A meteorologist is just a messenger, warning us, but powerless to stop it. God is the all-powerful creator, whose will could be fulfilled without a hurricane. Yet he sends or allows it.
Another question: Can we do something other than what God has predestined for us?
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CU Medallion [59057]
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I think about it like this ...
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Nov 24, 2023, 11:55 AM
[ in reply to Yes, but folks can't get past trying to see from God's perspective. ] |
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When God looks at his creation, for him, it's like looking at a finished painting. Zoom way in, and you find this earthly existence, where we all exist. From our perspective, we are more like characters in a movie, a series of present moments with a beginning and an end. Time is a mechanism designed to allow us to experience an aspect of God's creation in a particular way. Each present moment is a still frame in the film. Zoom way back out again and all of the frames of all of the movies are visible to God at once.
That is my little brain trying to understand things that are beyond my understanding.
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Orange Blooded [3615]
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Re: Do you believe in Predestination?
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Nov 24, 2023, 6:35 AM
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I think there is our own natural inclinations, but it is up to us to make it better or worse. The problem is we do not know it all until it is in the reciew mirror. The answer is that there is no absolute predestination. Its vague and malleable.
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Oculus Spirit [94487]
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We have many assurance from God which are immutable.***
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Nov 24, 2023, 8:01 AM
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All-In [30172]
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Re: Do you believe in Predestination?
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Nov 24, 2023, 2:23 PM
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A great topic and lots of different answers from different folks...just the sort of thing I like!
I had a lengthy debate once with Mrs. Fordt on predestination vs. Free Will. I said one can't have both. She said, "Sure they can. It's like being a rat in a lab experiment. The rat can choose any way it wants to run around in its cage. But it isn't getting out of that cage." So, Free Will at the micro level, predestination at the macro level.
She doesn't personally believe in predestination, but that's one example of how one might have both, just at different scales.
On time, that's another of my favorites. One of the better explanations I've heard is that time does seem to have a "flow," that is, things happen before and after one another (although I'll caveat this because the speed of light can fool us on what happens first sometimes.)
But think of that flow of time as a wide river. Even though the river is going in one direction, the water is moving faster at the center than along the shore. So, if we were all in individual inner tubes, we'd flow down the river at different rates, soem quickly, and some slowly, depending on how close to the shore we were.
The fact that time seems uniform to us is because we are actually all on the same inner tube...namely, the Earth. If we were spread far across the universe from each other, time would be revealed for what it actually is...individual, personal "time." It just seems we share a common time because we are close together.
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CU Medallion [59057]
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If God knows exactly what is going to happen before it happens, exactly
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Nov 24, 2023, 3:19 PM
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how everything is going to turn out, I don't see how we have the ability to make free choices. Sure, we choose, we make choices, but we can only choose that which God already knows we will choose - we can't choose anything else. So, true free will is just an illusion.
Or, God does not know what we will choose, and is therefore not all knowing. I have a hard time understanding how it can be both.
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All-In [30172]
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Re: If God knows exactly what is going to happen before it happens, exactly
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Nov 24, 2023, 4:13 PM
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Yes, I agree it is a logical tangle. And of course there is this problem, too.
>and is therefore not all knowing
Who among us is going to say "God is all-knowing?" Because for one to be able to say that, the person who is saying it would have to know everything, too.
I think someone could safely say "I 'think' or I 'hope' or I 'suspect' that God knows everything. But one cannot say, with certainty, that God 'does' know everything, unless they can verify that by knowing everything themselves.
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CU Medallion [59057]
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As I became an adult, I began to realize that there were a lot of
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Nov 24, 2023, 5:23 PM
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problems with what I had been taught about God. Like God is all powerful, all knowing, and loves us more than we can comprehend. God is all good, the opposite of evil; he is the enemy of evil. Yet, instead of just eliminating evil, he is either unwilling or unable to defeat it (I can't get anyone to tell me which or why), and instead is in a constant, ongoing battle against it. I was also taught that this God who loved us so much, instead of making it so that we would be with him in heaven for eternity, as creator he knowingly set up an existence for us where we would spend time on earth, where we were doomed to burn in hell for eternity (born sinners) unless we passed a test by making the right choice.
Upon this realization, which I came to over time, I rejected God completely, becoming an atheist. As time passed and I grew and life happened, and I began to realize that it may not be the idea of a God that was wrong, but the concept of God I had been taught. I discovered that there were a lot of people who believed in a God, even within the Christian tradition, that did not depend on an inerrant Bible as the factually correct word of God, and thus did not require belief in a God as creator who allows a lot of his children to burn in hell for eternity for no purpose whatsoever. That's where I am now.
Is God all-knowing and omni-present? Like everybody else, I don't know, but I believe he is. And I certainly don't know everything, and I certainly can't prove it.
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Orange Blooded [3171]
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Re: As I became an adult, I began to realize that there were a lot of
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Nov 24, 2023, 6:05 PM
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Apologist William Lane Craig has an interesting take on God and the presence of evil, more specifically, how can an all loving and all powerful God allow evil? His take is this: if it's even possible that God has a morally justifiable reason to allow evil, that would not be inconsistent with God being all powerful and all lovin. As he explains, that satisifies the philosophical part of that question. However, it doesn nothing to deal with the emotion of the question - we still don't like the existence of evil.
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CU Medallion [59057]
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As I said, if God is unwilling to eliminate evil, that's not the God I was
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Nov 24, 2023, 10:28 PM
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taught about while growing up, or at any point for that matter. That God hated evil, and was actively fighting against it. There was never, ever any mention of God allowing evil for some greater purpose. Not saying it's not correct; just pointing out that it wasn't taught in any church I have ever attended, or by any preacher I ever heard anywhere. My point has always been that God is either unwilling or unable to eliminate evil, but most people aren't willing to commit to either position. The most common argument I hear is that God must allow evil to exist as an opposite of good, so that we as earthly humans can understand the difference and appreciate and choose, in accordance with free will, good and God. The problem is, if God is all-powerful, there isn't anything he must do. Once again that does not fit with the concept of God I (and I believe most people) was taught.
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All-In [30172]
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Re: As I said, if God is unwilling to eliminate evil, that's not the God I was
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Nov 24, 2023, 11:00 PM
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Whenever one speaks in absolutes it often causes dilemmas. Good, Evil, Perfect, Infinite...all these terms are fraught with various interpretations and relative meanings. The list is long...
We can describe Heaven as perfect, yet there are wars in Heaven in which angels are cast out, etc. And I don't think many people would consider war reflective of perfection. Our terminology just isn't quite up to the task in many cases.
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CU Medallion [59057]
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I would say that if there are wars in heaven, then heaven is most
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Nov 25, 2023, 12:01 AM
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definitely not perfect. Now, if we are going to say that words don't mean what we think they mean, in other words that "perfect" doesn't mean perfect in this case, and we apply that reasoning to the entire bible, then the whole bible becomes incomprehensible nonsense. Having said that, I am sure not only is our laguage inadequate for describing, but our minds are limited in their ability to even comprehend God and the spiritual realm.
Or, in this case, it could just be that there are no wars in heaven, and that is just an allegorical myth made up by ancient people doing their very best to explain something beyond their comprehension.
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All-In [30172]
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Re: I would say that if there are wars in heaven, then heaven is most
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Nov 25, 2023, 6:42 AM
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>but our minds are limited in their ability to even comprehend God and the spiritual realm.
>Or, in this case, it could just be that there are no wars in heaven, and that is just an allegorical myth made up by ancient people doing their very best to explain something beyond their comprehension.
I'd say yes to both of those possibilities. We genuinely try to understand, but we are so limited.
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CU Medallion [59057]
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That's really it in a nutshell ...
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Nov 25, 2023, 11:36 AM
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I'd say yes to both of those possibilities. We genuinely try to understand, but we are so limited.
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Orange Blooded [3171]
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Re: As I said, if God is unwilling to eliminate evil, that's not the God I was
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Nov 25, 2023, 5:34 AM
[ in reply to As I said, if God is unwilling to eliminate evil, that's not the God I was ] |
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Theologians and philosophers have debated this for thousands of years so I don't expect anyone here will have the answer. It may be an oversimplification but I just think evil (or sin) is a necessary element of free will. If I am free to choose good, I must also be free to choose not-good.
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CU Guru [1213]
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Re: As I said, if God is unwilling to eliminate evil, that's not the God I was
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Nov 25, 2023, 7:58 AM
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What I find odd, is that this seems to be the position most Christians hold but at the same time will absolve god of all culpability for evil. How does that work? If you created people, knowing full well the Holocaust would happen as a result, how are you not responsible for that.
If i release a pitbull, that I know is aggressive into a backyard full of cats… am I not at all responsible for the resulting mayhem? I don’t even need to be omniscient to see thats going to cause pain and suffering.
Is free will so important that the atrocities we see are an acceptable by product? That seems ridiculous.
It seems much more likely that theologians and philosophers were jus barking up the wrong tree. This all makes way more sense if you realize that ancient religious texts are mythical.
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Orange Blooded [3171]
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Re: As I said, if God is unwilling to eliminate evil, that's not the God I was
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Nov 25, 2023, 8:12 AM
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My position, again, perhaps an oversimplification, is this....God's foreknowledge of my actions don't necessarily infringe upon my freedom. God can see when I will make a free decision to engage in a sinful action. I don't believe God's foreknowledge brings the action to about. What you call an "acceptable by product" of freewill, I would describe as a "necessary by product" of freewill.
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CU Guru [1213]
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Re: As I said, if God is unwilling to eliminate evil, that's not the God I was
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Nov 25, 2023, 9:27 AM
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> I don't believe God's foreknowledge brings the action to about
So, if God never created humans, would the holocaust had happened?
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CU Medallion [59057]
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Again, here's the problem with that ...
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Nov 25, 2023, 11:47 AM
[ in reply to Re: As I said, if God is unwilling to eliminate evil, that's not the God I was ] |
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The most common argument I hear is that God must allow evil to exist as an opposite of good, so that we as earthly humans can understand the difference and appreciate and choose, in accordance with free will, good and God. In other words, God doesn't want evil, but it's necessary. The problem is, if God is all-powerful, there isn't anything he must do, or that is necessary.
So, either God is not all-powerful after all, or he wants evil to exist. It's one or the other.
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Legend [16769]
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Re: As I became an adult, I began to realize that there were a lot of
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Nov 24, 2023, 8:14 PM
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Well no, that was what earth was but then that plan failed because “ humans messed it up by choosing to sin” .
But, because reasons, that won’t happen in heaven… even though angels decided to leave it too.
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CU Medallion [59057]
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It's as if an all-powerful, all-knowing God created something that didn't
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Nov 24, 2023, 10:31 PM
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work out like he intended or expected.
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All-In [30172]
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Re: As I became an adult, I began to realize that there were a lot of
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Nov 24, 2023, 10:47 PM
[ in reply to As I became an adult, I began to realize that there were a lot of ] |
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>I began to realize that it may not be the idea of a God that was wrong, but the concept of God I had been taught.
This is key I think. Because no one knows how God came to anyone but themselves, if he came at all. How can one know what a "wrong" religion is, unless one knows what God told everyone?
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CU Medallion [59057]
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Re: As I became an adult, I began to realize that there were a lot of
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Nov 25, 2023, 12:06 AM
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I believe a lot of people think they do know.
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Orange Blooded [3171]
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Re: If God knows exactly what is going to happen before it happens, exactly
Jan 27, 2024, 6:02 AM
[ in reply to If God knows exactly what is going to happen before it happens, exactly ] |
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I don't think God's divine foreknowledge conflicts with free-will. God can know what you will freely decide to eat for breakfast tomorrow without infringing on your freedom to choose cereal over pancakes. God's foreknowledge doesn't determine your choice.
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CU Guru [1213]
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Re: If God knows exactly what is going to happen before it happens, exactly
Jan 27, 2024, 7:38 AM
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That doesn’t absolve him of the fact that he would know exactly what people like hitler would do and decided to created them anyway.
You can’t say he had nothing to do with those atrocities when he supposedly created everything and knew exactly what would happen. That’s illogical nonsense.
It literally would mean he creates people for the purpose of being brutally tortured for eternity.
Mind you, you don’t have to be hitler to go to hell right? You just have to do the “unthinkable” act of not being convinced when ancient men wrote down someone rose from the dead. If a thousand people told you right now that someone rose from the dead you’d still want some confirming evidence yet you think claims written decades after the fact are sufficient.
Total nonsense.
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All-In [30172]
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Re: Do you believe in Predestination?
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Nov 24, 2023, 2:52 PM
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Got off on a couple of tangents there...
As to predestination itself, it's kinda gray I think. Others have alluded to there being some things that may be predestined while others are not.
Any prophecy could be viewed in that light. When Amos says Israel will be destroyed, is he talking "for certain, according to a pre-existing plan" or is he talking "if you keep this disobedience up?" Could be interpreted either way, I think.
In the New Testament, the word predestination only appears 4 times, all by Paul. (though the concept may appear more times, idk) The first two are in Romans:
Romans 8:29-30 "For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.
In that case predestination is mixed in with the concept of the "elect" and the "called", and the idea that some of God's chosen will be "conformed into the image of his Son"...I don't know if these concepts or interpretations fully exist today in the way they did when Paul was walking around.
That is, are we going to become like Jesus? To what extent? Lots of open questions about what Paul is specifically talking about.
The other two instances are in Ephesians:
Eph 1:6 he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will...11 In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will.
That again ties into the idea of the "elect," and it also includes the concept of "adoption to sonship," which is a very Roman idea, tied to Roman citizenship, etc. In that sense it seems Paul might be saying that although Gentiles are not chosen blood, like Jews, they can be "adopted" into the blood family through belief in Jesus.
It's an unusual way of thinking, to me at least. That is, just believing in Jesus doesn't seem to be quite enough for Paul in this case. He wants to validate the gentiles inclusion into the family in a legal sense, as an adoption. This makes me feel like Christianity is far from split off and stand alone from Judaism at this point (say, 80ish AD maybe?)
It's also interesting that Paul doesn't say "the plan of him who 'WORKED' out everything." Paul says "the plan of him who 'WORKS' out everything." That indicates a dynamic operation, not something set up in the past. That would indicate the idea of a certain outcome, though the path to get to that outcome may be variable.
No way to get into Paul's head on what he actually means, or if he's even correct, but it is fun to try.
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Hall of Famer [24989]
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Re: Do you believe in Predestination?
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Nov 24, 2023, 6:03 PM
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I think you have to, if you believe in God's omnipotence.
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Hall of Famer [24989]
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Re: Do you believe in Predestination?
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Nov 25, 2023, 1:19 AM
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That's the difference in us trying to repent and being brought to repentance. It's all related to forgiving others when we pray to our father. This is related to love, joy, peace, patience, goodness, kindness, faithfulness gentleness, and self control.
Of which, all of these things I fail at times. I am thankful for a savior. His celebration is coming.
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110%er [6578]
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Re: Do you believe in Predestination?
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Nov 28, 2023, 9:22 PM
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That's not predestination. That is free will and omnipotence.
I believe in predestination.
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Standout [340]
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No, thats a hateful philosophy from Calvinists***
Dec 5, 2023, 3:59 PM
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Oculus Spirit [94487]
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The Apostle Paul...
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Dec 5, 2023, 6:11 PM
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used the term predestined in preaching his belief. I won't argue about it because I have found true value in the knowledge that predestination is more beneficial to believe than to believe otherwise.
I'd be delighted to share that with you so you can see if it benefits you as much as it should all who believe Paul. Just ask.
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Orange Blooded [3615]
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Re: Do you believe in Predestination?
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Dec 5, 2023, 6:15 PM
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No.
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110%er [6578]
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Re: Do you believe in Predestination?
Dec 11, 2023, 8:26 PM
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Definitely.
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110%er [6578]
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Re: Do you believe in Predestination?
Jan 26, 2024, 9:48 PM
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Yep
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All-Conference [440]
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Re: Do you believe in Predestination?
Jan 29, 2024, 2:36 PM
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I am no religious scholar or Theologian. I am a Presbyterian. And I dare not "presume" anything in scripture that it means this or that. I believe (I suppose would be the best way to put) that predestination means that you do not EARN your way into heaven. Somewhere there is the number 144,000 getting into heaven. What does that mean? Other than there's gonna be a lot of disappointed people? I don't believe there is a tally of "good" things (as we define good here on earth) accounted against the "bad" things I've done that determines which direction I'm heading in the afterlife.
Jesus said, "Come to me". Spread the Word, for sure. But he didn't say go out and bring them in dragging and screaming to me. In reading Don Miller's Blue Like Jazz and In Search of God Know What, there's a part that says (I'm paraphrasing)..when Jesus said, "Feed my sheep", he didn't mean to be sure and vote for the politician that will ensure a company can get a tax break so they can build a factory in your town so that a person can get a job in order to buy food. By the same token, he didn't mean to vote for or lobby congressmen to pass legislation so that someone who fills out the paperwork and qualifies can get funding in order to buy some food. I believe he meant to go out there and give someone that's hungry some something to eat.
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