|
Replies: 17
| visibility 252
|
Legend [18073]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 9002
Joined: 12/24/96
|
Did y'all work it our? Abraham and Isaac? And Ishmael?
3
Dec 17, 2023, 7:41 PM
|
|
I think the one thing that most overlook, and that which I did not clearly explain earlier, is that God's covenant with Abraham was initiated AFTER Ishmael was born. Scripture clearly points out that Ishmael is Abraham's son... he is even circumcised when God takes the first steps in initiating the covenant with Abraham.
The promise that Abraham would be the father of many is fulfilled with both Ishmael and Isaac. However, only Isaac is the Son of Promise, through whom Abraham's descendants will multiply and bring forth the Messiah, the Savior of the world.
Ishmael has become exactly as God promised in Genesis 16:12. Abraham was 86 years old when Ishmael was born.
When Abraham was 99 years old, God came back around and promised Abraham the son by which God's blessings would flow. Isaac. Not Ishmael, who was already born. It is interesting to note that it is at this point that God [changes] Abram's name to Abraham. The one represented the man in the world. The new represented the man under covenant with God. The covenant which brought forth Isaac.
God also renamed Sarai to Sarah at this time. She was to be the mother of nations and kings through this covenant.
Ishmael is the son of Abram. The mother a hand maiden to Sarah.
Isaac is the son of Abraham. The mother being Sarah herself.
As the Jews validate their lineage as a Jew through the mother, they also measure the covenant of God through the son of promise - Isaac. That is, as a child born to a Jewish man by a non-Jewish mother is not a Jew, so, a child born outside the lineage of the son of promise is not a child of the covenant (Ishmael is not a child of the covenant).
God makes the distinction for a reason.
Abraham pleaded with God that Ishmael be the son of blessing, since he himself, and Sarai was so old already. God said, "No! But My covenant will be with Isaac." God did hear the plea, however, and stated He would also make Ishmael great, and through him 12 princes would arise.
Ishmael was circumcised due to the covenant, and because he was recognized as a son of Abram[ham].
Abraham was 100 years old when Isaac was born under the promise of God.
Hope this added to the confusion.
|
|
|
|
 |
Heisman Winner [121015]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 54967
Joined: 6/24/09
|
Bird Dog was just trying to start a fight***
3
Dec 17, 2023, 8:19 PM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [2261]
TigerPulse: 70%
Posts: 2652
Joined: 6/4/22
|
Re: Did y'all work it our? Abraham and Isaac? And Ishmael?
1
Dec 17, 2023, 8:38 PM
|
|
So if Ishmael was blessed, and Muslims trace their religion to him, can Muslims be saved? Do they not have their faith in the same god you do?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Legend [18073]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 9002
Joined: 12/24/96
|
Re: Did y'all work it our? Abraham and Isaac? And Ishmael?
Dec 17, 2023, 9:12 PM
|
|
You are entirely strapped to the Old Testament covenant by hanging on to the who is who in Abra[ham]. The Savior to the world comes through Isaac... but He comes for all who will believe in Him... not Abraham, nor Ishmael.
The OT covenant brought forth the Messiah, who makes a New Covenant in His blood for the whole world. No more Jew. No more Gentile. Brothers and sisters in Christ are one.
Can Muslims be saved? Yes, but through Jesus only.
Muhammad is not a new covenant in God.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [2261]
TigerPulse: 70%
Posts: 2652
Joined: 6/4/22
|
Re: Did y'all work it our? Abraham and Isaac? And Ishmael?
1
Dec 17, 2023, 9:21 PM
|
|
Muslims believe in Jesus, they just don’t believe everything the New Testament says about him.
“Whosoever believeth in him shall not perish”
|
|
|
|
|
|
Legend [18073]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 9002
Joined: 12/24/96
|
Re: Did y'all work it our? Abraham and Isaac? And Ishmael?
1
Dec 17, 2023, 9:30 PM
|
|
Even the demons believe and tremble...
Many Muslims also believe Jesus and Muhammad are brothers as well. Jesus, being the oldest, did not relinquish His teaching to the younger brother. And, in that belief system where the older brother always represents the will of the Father, in the mortal and spiritual life, I wonder if Muhammad is being held to account for undermining the work of his Older brother, Jesus...
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [2261]
TigerPulse: 70%
Posts: 2652
Joined: 6/4/22
|
Re: Did y'all work it our? Abraham and Isaac? And Ishmael?
Dec 17, 2023, 10:04 PM
|
|
Jesus didn’t say that. He said believe. He didn’t specify what exactly.
He also said keep the commandments which seems to contradict himself but that’s another argument.
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Guru [1213]
TigerPulse: 98%
Posts: 1673
Joined: 11/15/23
|
Re: Did y'all work it our? Abraham and Isaac? And Ishmael?
1
Dec 17, 2023, 10:23 PM
|
|
> Jesus didn’t say that. He said believe. He didn’t specify what exactly.
to be fair, nobody knows what he actually did or didn't say. Jesus didn't write anything down, people decades later wrote down what he supposedly said.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [2261]
TigerPulse: 70%
Posts: 2652
Joined: 6/4/22
|
Re: Did y'all work it our? Abraham and Isaac? And Ishmael?
Dec 17, 2023, 10:39 PM
|
|
Well some things are more certain than others.
The goats and sheep passage from Matthew is probably authentic because it seems to contradict the mainstream belief of salvation by faith alone.
John 3:16 is actually one of the things Jesus was likely to NOT have said. John came later when these things like how one obtained salvation was being debated. Plus if that quote was authentic why would Paul or the earlier gospel writers never mention it.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Legend [18073]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 9002
Joined: 12/24/96
|
Re: Did y'all work it our? Abraham and Isaac? And Ishmael?
Dec 17, 2023, 10:41 PM
[ in reply to Re: Did y'all work it our? Abraham and Isaac? And Ishmael? ] |
|
Jesus also said, "I am the door..."
Jesus also said, "I am the bread of life..."
Jesus also said, "I am the light of the world..."
Jesus also said, "I am the true vine..."
Jesus also said, "Before Abraham was, I Am..."
Jesus also said to, "Take up your cross daily, and follow Me..."
One can take a position that "believes" means to simply acknowledge He existed on this earth, because you accept the evidence presented that He did. Jesus, Himself, However, did not teach a universal salvation. Quite the opposite, actually.
Matthew 7:21-23: “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’
Please note the [emphatic] "I NEVER knew you..."
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [2261]
TigerPulse: 70%
Posts: 2652
Joined: 6/4/22
|
Re: Did y'all work it our? Abraham and Isaac? And Ishmael?
Dec 18, 2023, 10:45 AM
|
|
So Jesus taught faith AND works…
|
|
|
|
|
|
Legend [18073]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 9002
Joined: 12/24/96
|
Re: Did y'all work it our? Abraham and Isaac? And Ishmael?
1
Dec 18, 2023, 11:55 AM
|
|
Christmas season got a bit argumentative?
Hope you have a good day and a Merry Christmas!
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [2261]
TigerPulse: 70%
Posts: 2652
Joined: 6/4/22
|
Re: Did y'all work it our? Abraham and Isaac? And Ishmael?
1
Dec 20, 2023, 3:40 PM
|
|
Merry Christmas to you HuntClub®. I enjoy your posts and think I could for the most part tolerate your preaching. 😃
|
|
|
|
|
|
Oculus Spirit [94487]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 95648
Joined: 12/25/09
|
Re: Did y'all work it our? Abraham and Isaac? And Ishmael?
Dec 20, 2023, 9:35 AM
|
|
Most important is that Ishmael was born of a slave who Abram slept with. He wasn't the son of promise but just an night gone wrong due to Sarah thinking God needed her help.
Along with the example of Sarah judging God that is probably our second greatest lesson which applies to all we Christians today. GOD DOES NOT NEED ME!
He doesn't NEED me to know the truth of His Word. He doesn't NEED me to understand His love for me. He doesn't NEED me to validate the authenticity of Jesus' claims to His Throne. He doesn't NEED me to witness to His power, grace, mercy, glory, faithfulness and He doesn't not NEED me to testify to you of His love for you.
He allows me and gives me the opportunity to these things. That's for me, not for Him. If it was for me I would always see the results. I do not, I am not entitled to think that I've done a service for Him. If it did I would view my relationship with Him as a bargain, ### for tat. 'Bar,' for bar and 'Gain,' for gain. To quote the professor.
The Big Dog, had no idea what he stumbled across when he made that post. Neither did I.
Our, your joy and my joy, comes from obedience, not the end results of our obedience. The glory for the end results of our obedience to Him is His. We give glory to God for the working of His Holy Spirit both within us and within others.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [2261]
TigerPulse: 70%
Posts: 2652
Joined: 6/4/22
|
Re: Did y'all work it our? Abraham and Isaac? And Ishmael?
Dec 20, 2023, 3:36 PM
|
|
Here’s a wild idea….
Why couldn’t god chose both Isaac AND Ishmael?
That way all these muslims don’t have to die and go to hell.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Oculus Spirit [94487]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 95648
Joined: 12/25/09
|
Uh there's a few things about this you should know.
Dec 21, 2023, 8:42 AM
|
|
The invitation is open to whosoever right now. If you posted an open invitation on the R&P bored here on Tnet for a Spring Game party and someone here accused you of ignoring them...
You chose your wife. God, at least, has as many rights as you and I.
Psa 9"
"10 And they that know thy name will put their trust in thee: for thou, LORD, hast not forsaken them that seek thee."
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [2261]
TigerPulse: 70%
Posts: 2652
Joined: 6/4/22
|
Re: Uh there's a few things about this you should know.
Dec 21, 2023, 11:44 AM
|
|
Ishmael is where Islam traces its roots back to Abraham.
It was god who supposedly chose Isaac.
You say it was because he was born in a legitimate marriage.
Poor Ishmael. He’s not the one that couldn’t keep it in his pants.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Oculus Spirit [94487]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 95648
Joined: 12/25/09
|
Re: Uh there's a few things about this you should know.***
Dec 22, 2023, 8:16 AM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Replies: 17
| visibility 252
|
|
|
50
