|
Replies: 63
| visibility 658
|
Orange Blooded [2260]
TigerPulse: 70%
Posts: 2652
Joined: 6/4/22
|
Was the flood that covered the earth
2
Feb 7, 2024, 1:27 PM
|
|
Salt or fresh water?
|
|
|
|
 |
All-In [26802]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 20831
Joined: 9/2/02
|
Fresh. Next question.***
3
Feb 7, 2024, 1:36 PM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Medallion [59055]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 46611
Joined: 4/23/00
|
|
|
|
|
|
Legend [18073]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 9002
Joined: 12/24/96
|
Why?
1
Feb 7, 2024, 2:51 PM
|
|
you must be "fishing" for something. Not sure if it is a trout or a trout.
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Guru [1212]
TigerPulse: 98%
Posts: 1673
Joined: 11/15/23
|
Yes, asking a religion question on the religion board is fishing for something
2
Feb 7, 2024, 3:52 PM
|
|
lol.
This isn't the christian belief only board you know.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Oculus Spirit [94487]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 95648
Joined: 12/25/09
|
You declaring Muslim, Hindi or Hebrew?
1
Feb 7, 2024, 6:47 PM
|
|
I wish some of the lunge Hebrews would discuss the OT with me. There is no people I more respect.
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Guru [1212]
TigerPulse: 98%
Posts: 1673
Joined: 11/15/23
|
Re: You declaring Muslim, Hindi or Hebrew?
1
Feb 7, 2024, 9:15 PM
|
|
I'm declaring "no religion", this forum is to discuss religion, not necessarily "your" religion.
|
|
|
|
|
|
110%er [6578]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 10202
Joined: 11/2/03
|
Re: Was the flood that covered the earth
1
Feb 7, 2024, 3:41 PM
|
|
Fresh
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [2260]
TigerPulse: 70%
Posts: 2652
Joined: 6/4/22
|
Re: Was the flood that covered the earth
1
Feb 7, 2024, 4:56 PM
|
|
Only 3% of the earth's water is fresh.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Oculus Spirit [94487]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 95648
Joined: 12/25/09
|
It's easier to salt water than desalinate it.
1
Feb 7, 2024, 6:57 PM
|
|
Not that such as that forced God toward fresh water.
Since the Bible never mentions rain before the flood and we know that the mist (dew) watered the plants in the garden we assume, and reasonably so, that much of the water came upon the surface of the earth as rain. I mean, 40 days and 40 nights. Check out the rainfall in Cal.
I believe that's why Noah was so ridiculed over spending nearly a century building a boat so far from a body of water. No one could imagine rain, perhaps they couldn't conceive it. I don't actually recall reading that God told Noah it was going to rain.
So Noah, on faith, who was ~500 yrs/o started building a boat. I'm not so naive as to think the town folks didn't know what a boat was. I'm glad ole Noah obeyed. His is a story of blind faith which save him, his wife and children.
I'm glad God doesn't call me to do something that takes 50-75 years to do.
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Guru [1212]
TigerPulse: 98%
Posts: 1673
Joined: 11/15/23
|
Re: It's easier to salt water than desalinate it.
2
Feb 7, 2024, 9:19 PM
|
|
Are we really now suggesting that it didn't rain until a handful of millennia ago?
The mental gymnastics required is so entertaining.
>His is a story of blind faith which save him, his wife and children.
If the story is true, he had God literally talking to him, that's called direct evidence, not faith.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Oculus Spirit [94487]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 95648
Joined: 12/25/09
|
It's strange that you never consider that God has spoken to me...
1
Feb 8, 2024, 6:53 AM
|
|
as 'direct evidence,' yet you acknowledge that it is when it suits your argument. It's as if you're talking to a blind idiot who can't remember what he's said from one day to the next.
I have more respect for you than that.
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Guru [1212]
TigerPulse: 98%
Posts: 1673
Joined: 11/15/23
|
Re: It's strange that you never consider that God has spoken to me...
1
Feb 8, 2024, 7:08 AM
|
|
I've explained this to you before, a few times know but it doesn't stick.
When I say "god did something" in the bible, I'm referring to it as a story. I don't think it actually happened. I'm discussing it in the same way I would describe a fiction novel.
I'm saying that "would be" direct evidence.
In your case, sure, I would expect that to be direct evidence. However, I don't believe you have had this direct evidence because the evidence you did give (or in this case come up with) is quite bad. You have never demonstrated this supposed direct evidence to me, so I have no reason to believe it.
>It's as if you're talking to a blind idiot who can't remember what he's said from one day to the next.
I got to be honest, I've repeated things like the above several times to you and here I am again re-explaining it... what am I supposed to take from that.
>I'm glad God doesn't call me to do something that takes 50-75 years to do.
And lastly, you called Noah's faith blind. He supposedly literally talked with God and you call that blind? How is that anything but direct evidence?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Oculus Spirit [94487]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 95648
Joined: 12/25/09
|
So you view my testimony as a fairy tale?
1
Feb 8, 2024, 10:35 AM
|
|
Do you view everything someone tells you as a fairy tale or is that view selectively appied to testimonies to God's faithfulness?
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Guru [1212]
TigerPulse: 98%
Posts: 1673
Joined: 11/15/23
|
Re: So you view my testimony as a fairy tale?
2
Feb 8, 2024, 11:57 AM
|
|
>So you view my testimony as a fairy tale?
No, I don't think you are making it up or lying, I think you are sincerely mistaken. I believe you think you are talking to God but are not.
>Do you view everything someone tells you as a fairy tale or is that view selectively appied to testimonies to God's faithfulness?
Look, I know you like to scream persecution but I don't believe Catholics, Muslims, Hindus, UFO reports either.
Let me be crystal clear, even though I've said it a million times you seem to twist what I'm saying. I don't think any of the above are necessarily lying or making it up (sure, maybe a few do, idk), I think they sincerely believe what they are giving testimony about, but I don't have the evidence to say any of them are true.
You like to make it sound like I'm being unfair to Christians/Christianity when the fact is that I treat all such claims the same.
If I believe you, without sufficient evidence, why shouldn't I believe the Catholic who claims to have seen Mary?
So please, if you re going to accuse me of selectively applying this, show me a single example where i've done so. I'll give you a hint, you can't do it because that's not how I operate. I suspect though that instead of updating your position with this information, you'll just continue to say i have something against your god in particular, when I don't.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hall of Famer [24632]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 14075
Joined: 7/3/01
|
Re: It's easier to salt water than desalinate it.
2
Feb 10, 2024, 1:04 PM
[ in reply to It's easier to salt water than desalinate it. ] |
|
There is a humorous series on Prime, "Good Omens", about a demon and an angel, both assigned to earth from the beginning. The demon is super hip, with-it, crafty, a Bill Nighy type. The angel is funny, smart, slightly ditzy: a fun professor. One would expect an adversarial relationship, but over the millennia they have developed some accommodations. Both have come to actually enjoy earth, so in the present time they realize they have to do something about the recently born anti-Christ, or their cushy gigs here are up. Very well cast, is funny. Believe it or not, they do it without promoting or making fun of any religion, or of atheism: neutral in that regard.
Anyway, there is look-back scene showing the beginning of the flood. The demon and the angel are standing there watching the rain start. The demon is flabbergasted, the angel is obedient if distraught.
Demon: "You're telling me He is going to flood the entire earth??"
A distracted head nod, like, "I don't get it, but yeah."
"And he's going to kill everyone?"
Head nod.
"All the children?"
Head nod. "Well, the locals at least. I don't know that he's mad at the Chinese."
"So, He's doing my job for me? I've won?"
"No, there's that guy over there, the one with the boat."
Is funny.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Oculus Spirit [94487]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 95648
Joined: 12/25/09
|
We watched it.
1
Feb 11, 2024, 9:59 AM
|
|
It was entertaining because both lead actors were so well cast in their roles, perfect interactions.
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Guru [1212]
TigerPulse: 98%
Posts: 1673
Joined: 11/15/23
|
Re: Was the flood that covered the earth
2
Feb 7, 2024, 3:53 PM
|
|
Fresh, but it magically didn't kill all the saltwater animals. Kangaroos were able to swim all the way to Australia as well.
The coolest part of all is it all happened but left no trace that it did!
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [2595]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 2065
Joined: 7/17/13
|
Have to respect the predators that let prey get back to their
1
Feb 7, 2024, 8:34 PM
|
|
Homelands before attacking
|
|
|
|
|
|
Oculus Spirit [94487]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 95648
Joined: 12/25/09
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Guru [1212]
TigerPulse: 98%
Posts: 1673
Joined: 11/15/23
|
Re: I though you scienced.
1
Feb 8, 2024, 8:00 AM
|
|
"I though you scienced." says the man who just claimed that rain started magically happening a few thousand years ago by a maniacal being wanting to murder the entire world
lmao! what?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Oculus Spirit [94487]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 95648
Joined: 12/25/09
|
Actually, the theory of climate change plays a part of The Garden report on...
1
Feb 8, 2024, 10:45 AM
|
|
there being no rain but the mist/dew watered the plants. If the earth is warming then certainly the cold spots in the atmosphere would decrease leaving the warmer air to maintain a higher humidity. Naturally then the dew would be quite heavy in the evening hours throughout morning when the Sunrise.
That's also supported by the fact that Adam and Eve were necked until they sinned. How would that work unless the temperatures were mild?
You simply fail to know the story and for that reason you fail to apply any form of logic...
God isn't magical, His intelligence is such that not only did He conceived a universe and designed it to obey him in every way. The only entities He allowed to disobey were angels and mankind. He gave us free will and we use it to ignore Him.
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Guru [1212]
TigerPulse: 98%
Posts: 1673
Joined: 11/15/23
|
Re: Actually, the theory of climate change plays a part of The Garden report on...
1
Feb 8, 2024, 11:59 AM
|
|
>You simply fail to know the story and for that reason you fail to apply any form of logic...
lol. We have hard evidence this story isn't true. It's clearly mythical.
>God isn't magical, His intelligence is such that not only did He conceived a universe and designed it to obey him in every way. The only entities He allowed to disobey were angels and mankind. He gave us free will and we use it to ignore Him
I mean, if he never shows up it's pretty easy to ignore him. Why do you ignore Allah or Thor? I ignore yours for the same reason.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hall of Famer [24632]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 14075
Joined: 7/3/01
|
An obvious, bottom shelf observation, but the story seems to indicate
1
Feb 9, 2024, 11:33 AM
[ in reply to Actually, the theory of climate change plays a part of The Garden report on... ] |
|
that the rainbow at the end was a first-ever. No one had ever seen one. We know what causes them, so conditions had become dramatically different, which could explain how rain was rare, then did for "40 days" (long time), and now cant again (the promise). I haven't read anything about those possibilities, is not that important to me, is just something that has come to mind. You read anything about that?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Oculus Spirit [94487]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 95648
Joined: 12/25/09
|
Not a lot.
2
Feb 9, 2024, 12:10 PM
|
|
I'm a firm believer that it had not rained previously. Some consider Heb 11:7 as supporting that. It's not absolute there, imo. It may be that no one had seen a flood before but it certainly doesn't eliminate the possibility that it had never rained. Obviously bodies of water and boats were commonly understood if not seen by all.
I've reasoned through the global warming thing and am satisfied that I'll never argue either way because I know that during Christ's 1000 yr reign the earth will have gone through some global changed. The population will decrease significantly and production of food will increase to an adequate proportion so as to feed everyone well.
Imo, thinking that global warming is God's solution is as reasonable as thinking that it's God's curse upon mankind. Either way, I believe God is good and it's proven by His self sacrifice on the cross.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hall of Famer [24632]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 14075
Joined: 7/3/01
|
Re: Not a lot.
2
Feb 9, 2024, 1:40 PM
|
|
What the world might have been like without the fall is something we cannot even imagine, but people like CS Lewis ("Space Trilogy" series) have some fun takes on what might have been. Chris Walley has written a "Lamb Among The Stars" series that takes into account an apocalypse, a thousand year reign, and a 'new heaven and earth', and continues on from there. It is all supposition, even if informed supposition, but it's fun to consider.
Out Of The Silent Planet (set on Mars, the first of the Space Trilogy) imagines what we might have been like had we never fallen. The temptation would have occurred, but we would have remained dependent on God: evil is known to exist. Perelandra (Journey to Venus) imagines a world not merely before the fall but also before the temptation. That one made me reconsider so many things. For instance, what must Eve have been like, if someone like Adam would see her as everything he was not? Lewis completely redefines what women are meant to be, in a way that makes complete intuitive and biblical sense. You wouldn't want to mess with one. I actually sat my wife down and apologized. For everything, stuff I couldn't put into words. The final one, which describes our future, will scare anybody with its simplicity: it merely describes who we really are..
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [2260]
TigerPulse: 70%
Posts: 2652
Joined: 6/4/22
|
Re: Actually, the theory of climate change plays a part of The Garden report on...
1
Feb 9, 2024, 12:07 PM
[ in reply to Actually, the theory of climate change plays a part of The Garden report on... ] |
|
Ironically I spent 3 decades in church reading the bible and I never knew of this verse until Fordtunate Son pointed it out...
Genesis 3:22
"And the Lord God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever."
So this notion that "sin" was the downfall of man according to the bible is just simply not true.
Adam and Eve were banished from the garden because they supposedly gained knowledge that apparently god did not want them to have.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hall of Famer [24632]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 14075
Joined: 7/3/01
|
Re: Actually, the theory of climate change plays a part of The Garden report on...
1
Feb 9, 2024, 1:25 PM
|
|
I do not respond to you and your mini-me much any more, because Pr 26:4 was written with you in mind. But this is a good opportunity to point out how it is we know you are a lying troll:
> "Ironically I spent 3 decades in church reading the bible and I never knew of this verse ..."
An absolute lie. Either "three decades" or "never knew", or both, are lies. No one is buying it.
> "So this notion that "sin" was the downfall ... is simply not true. Adam and Eve were banished from the garden because ... they gained knowledge God did not want them to have."
I know, you know, we all know that their decision to 'know good and evil' was an act of independence from God, and was beginning of, and is now the definition of, sin, and that individual acts we also call 'sin' are merely the result of that core act of rebellious independence. This has been discussed many times on this board.
You claim ignorance - it seems to come naturally - simply to create discord. We all know it. Whether others continue to answer on your terms, as if you have an ounce of sincerity, is up to them. I don't understand why, but that is up to them. But that doesn't change what we all know you are.
Carry on.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [2260]
TigerPulse: 70%
Posts: 2652
Joined: 6/4/22
|
Re: Actually, the theory of climate change plays a part of The Garden report on...
1
Feb 9, 2024, 3:17 PM
|
|
It’s a puzzling passage. Sounds like we could have ate a piece of fruit and lived forever but god didn’t want that.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Legend [18073]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 9002
Joined: 12/24/96
|
Why do you suppose
1
Feb 9, 2024, 4:40 PM
|
|
that Adam and Eve hid from God after they had eaten of the forbidden fruit?
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Guru [1212]
TigerPulse: 98%
Posts: 1673
Joined: 11/15/23
|
|
|
|
|
|
Oculus Spirit [94487]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 95648
Joined: 12/25/09
|
I don't see TBD in that light.
2
Feb 9, 2024, 10:32 PM
[ in reply to Re: Actually, the theory of climate change plays a part of The Garden report on... ] |
|
He seems to me to actually try to get it even though it's probably not for the same reason you and I try.
The Big Dog®, Christians know that God has a hedge around them. Most think it's some barrier to ward off enemies who seek to do them harm. I'm not talking about physical harm but those who would deceive and lead us astray.
That 'fence,' God builds around us is more to keep us in that keep intruders out. It defines our boundaries and lets us know there's danger to us on the other side. We call that danger, sin.
God set such a hedge for Adam and Eve. One tree had fruit which was on the other side of the fence. Within the borders of the fence is safety because all the area in which we are allowed to roam is under God's shield. It's an umbrella which shields us from His wrath.
Adam and Eve stepped outside that boundary, into sin and brought a curse upon themselves and this entire universe.
If you have questions about this let me know and I'll try to help.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [2260]
TigerPulse: 70%
Posts: 2652
Joined: 6/4/22
|
Re: I don't see TBD in that light.
2
Feb 10, 2024, 10:48 AM
|
|
Pretty good explanation. So do you see this as an allegory for the human species coming to realize right from wrong or a literal event in history?
I think I could go along with the former. I've not put away the idea that there could be some sort of higher power, in fact I would say it's more likely than not, and that he/she/it gave us the abilities we have compared to the other species.
The fundamentalism of religion just turns me off. You literally can not be a part of christian culture without dealing with it as it pervades every church in some way shape or form.
If 'love your neighbor' was the prominent theme and that's it, I think more people could go along with it...
|
|
|
|
|
|
Oculus Spirit [94487]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 95648
Joined: 12/25/09
|
Have you considered that...
1
Feb 11, 2024, 10:04 AM
|
|
everyone has sin in their lives and that includes everyone. If you're seeking a reason to not be saved I have worked it down to this. I highly recommend it for everyone who seeks to avoid God.
Just do as you think right. If you think that loving your neighbor is the key to joy, try it. If that fails try something else...when you've exhausted your list get back to me.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hall of Famer [24632]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 14075
Joined: 7/3/01
|
Re: I don't see TBD in that light.
2
Feb 10, 2024, 11:45 AM
[ in reply to I don't see TBD in that light. ] |
|
I do not agree with your first sentence, but we are free to disagree. I do not believe much of what he says. He'll soon respond to a sincere comment of yours by saying you believe in talking snakes, which was his only reason for engaging. Carry on.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Oculus Spirit [94487]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 95648
Joined: 12/25/09
|
Re: I don't see TBD in that light.
1
Feb 11, 2024, 10:17 AM
|
|
We have two here who think they are 'hardasses.' I probably understand them better than most folks because I was God's #1 hardass just 52 years ago. I robbed a freaking bank then raised a flock of children, I have five daughters. These guys are cupcakes compared to me. Them thinking they are hardass doesn't stop me and it doesn't slow God down.
Both of them are in deep caca right now. I pray for them every morning and night and sometimes during the day. Then only people to have praying for you worse than me are your mother, grandmother and a nun.
Nothing puts a strong, proud man on his knees like love. It is the most powerful weapon that exist. You can nuke millions of people but that's not power. Loving them until they submit to your love is power. You saw what Stephen did to Saul.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [2260]
TigerPulse: 70%
Posts: 2652
Joined: 6/4/22
|
Re: I don't see TBD in that light.
Feb 11, 2024, 11:25 AM
|
|
Funny I think ya'll are the ones too proud to question your beliefs.
"Hardasses" as you put it.
My ancient book says it and thats it...haaarumpphh.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hall of Famer [24632]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 14075
Joined: 7/3/01
|
Re: I don't see TBD in that light.
Feb 11, 2024, 3:22 PM
|
|
I can clear that up. It is not that we aren't willing to question it. It is that on this board we haven't yet seen it questioned.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hall of Famer [24632]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 14075
Joined: 7/3/01
|
Re: I don't see TBD in that light.
Feb 11, 2024, 12:09 PM
[ in reply to Re: I don't see TBD in that light. ] |
|
I don't disagree with any of that: what follows is tangent, just conversing, not a response to anything you said:
Love at times requires patient engagement. Sometimes it does not. There is no one right answer to any situation. You already know this, but one of the entire-book-in-one-sentence verses in the NT is "he came full of grace and truth". Those are often opposite reactions to a given situation, and only Jesus was fully both. The rest of us muddle through, erring on one side or the other.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [30172]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 8948
Joined: 10/31/10
|
Re: Actually, the theory of climate change plays a part of The Garden report on...
3
Feb 10, 2024, 10:55 AM
[ in reply to Re: Actually, the theory of climate change plays a part of The Garden report on... ] |
|
The Big Dog®
CUintulsa®
ClemsonTiger1988®
Hey guys! Sorry I've been AWOL but I've been a bit busy. I've had some time to read a few board posts but not much time to post myself, but when my name is directly invoked, well, that's just an open invitation for me to blabber on some! 
Some day I'll do a deep dive into Gen 3 again. We've discussed it before, but it's so interesting it never hurts to revisit it with a new pair of glasses sometimes. It's so wonderfully ambiguous in some areas that it leaves all kinds of room for interpretations, assumptions, and conclusions.
I've heard some great takes on it through the years, and one of the most interesting was from a Jewish rabbi. His take was that it was loyalty bait from God. Why God would do that, the rabbi didn't actually get into, but the idea was that if Adam and Eve weren't even self-aware enough to know they were naked, why provide the temptation of the fruit of two forbidden trees at all to them?
Why would God even put a tree in the garden he didn't want them to eat from? He made the garden, so he could have left those trees out, or made them inaccessible, but he didn't. Why put candy in front of a baby and say 'Don't eat this" as you slide it closer and closer to them. The rabbi's take was that the story is as illustrative of God's nature as it is of man's nature.
Even the serpent can't really be called sinful. He didn't disobey anyone. He may have even had permission to eat from the trees that man didn't have. It doesn't explicitly say God forbade him, and he does come off as more savvy than woefully naive mankind. The serpent was an agitator for sure, but was he sinful, or even evil? To expand the rabbi's point, why even have the serpent in the Garden if he's a known troublemaker?
It makes me think about the very idea of perfection actually. God could make "perfection", I imagine- perfect robots that worship him unfailingly and unflaggingly. But he doesn't seem to want that. He didn't make man that way. He seems to want man to choose to worship him. That gives man a great deal of power. The power to disobey God. Because the very existence of choice comes with the possibility of disobedience.
To me, there is a question of whether Sin started with that disobedience regarding the fruit or whether Adam and Eve succumbed to some version of Sin that pre-existed prior to that point. If Sin is defined as disobedience to God, then who was being disobedient to God before Adam and Eve? That would lead me to believe that Sin started with their actions.
But, on the other hand, the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil exists before they eat from it. So, that means good and evil have to exist before they eat from the tree. But good an evil between whom? If it was say, angels rebelling against God before man was on earth, then that means Adam and Eve weren't the first to rebel or be disobedient, so they can't really be blamed for starting the whole sin mess. That is somewhat counter to the idea of Original Sin, I think.
Is there some distinction the author of Genesis is making between "Sin" and "Good an Evil" that we are missing? It's not called the Tree of Sin. Nor is it called the Tree of Good and Evil. It's the tree of "knowledge" of good an evil. The tree of understanding the implications of our choices perhaps.
Sin is the act of disobedience, but is that act inherently evil? The story doesn't even exactly say that Adam and Eve "sinned," or that Adam and Eve themselves were evil.
The story simply says they gained an understanding of the difference between Good and Evil, thanks to God putting the tree there in the first place. Couldn't God have simply told them the difference up front, without the test that the rabbi referred to? Adam and Eve actually got smarter through their disobedience. And generally, being smarter is considered a good thing. This story seems to imply that ignorance truly is bliss, and a preferable state for man (at least in God's eyes, who was upset they ate the fruit.)
The story also shows that God worries. That's strange for an omnipotent and omniscient being. Why worry? He's concerned that his creation will reach his status of immortality. But in fact he has full control over that access. Just take the Tree of immortality out of the Garden, and problem solved. But he doesn't do that.
And then there's the very confusing "us" reference. Who is "us?" Was the story written at a time that the Jews still believed in other Gods? They speak elsewhere in Exodus of the gods of Egypt, and the God of Abraham was silent for many, many years, not even giving his name until the burning bush. We sometimes forget today that Jews were not always monotheistic. There are a lot of verses where God gets angry because they take up other folk's gods to worship.
So, probably many, many posts worth of discussion reviewing that whole Garden of Eden story again. I think if one gets in between the lines, there are some insights into how the Jews viewed God back then, which might not be the same as they view him today. We pretty much know what we think about the Judeo-Christain interpretation of God today, but I'd love to know what they thought back in 500 BCE or so.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [30172]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 8948
Joined: 10/31/10
|
Re: Actually, the theory of climate change plays a part of The Garden report on...
2
Feb 10, 2024, 11:44 AM
|
|
It usually takes a long-winded post before I can distill my thoughts down to a TLDR version.
What I'm getting at, and what I really respected about this rabbi's lecture, was that he was really trying to understand God. If you attribute existence itself to God, as opposed to random chance, then there follows a natural curiosity as to who did this (the universe), and why.
No one reads the Bible to learn about man. We all know our own failings and foibles intimately enough. And in my case, Mrs. Fordt is often willing to help me if I should forget them. People read the Bible, and religious texts, for insight into God, or higher beings, or whatever is "behind the curtain." And so questions like the ones the rabbi laid out begin to define who or what God is, or may be. And his potential limitations as well, independent of our childlike interpretations perhaps. The phrase "in his own image" can mean a lot of things, including shortcomings.
I've said before that in my childhood, my father was superman. He could do anything, etc. As an adult I see him differently. As just a man. I wonder about that in the changing interpretation of God over time, by different peoples.
To revisit Einstein's question of "was God limited in the way he created the universe" I'll call on an example from CS Lewis. One of Mrs. Fordt's favorite movies is Shadowlands, which is about Lewis's relationship with the poet Joy Davidman. It's a fantastic movie, highly recommended, but in a major spoiler (for a movie made in 1993) she dies of cancer prematurely, leaving Lewis to question why.
His question is twofold, and the crux of the movie. There is an element of "why did God do this to her, and me" but there's an even deeper question of "did God himself have a choice?" in this outcome.
That is, if you make a man, man dies. That's what men do. If man doesn't die, then he's not a man. He's something else. God could have chosen to make us immortal perhaps, but he didn't. He could have made robots, but he didn't. He wanted to make men (and women.)
So Lewis works his way around to some inherent limitations on man, and God perhaps. His dilemma in the beginning of the movie is whether to "love" Joy. He does, but will he give into it? He fought it, but eventually succumbed to feelings he could not control.
But with love, inherently, comes eventual pain. If you love someone, you will feel pain and sorrow when they die. To the point that if you don't feel pain, can you say you truly loved them in the first place?
The two emotions are inseparable. Like two side of a coin. They always come as a pair, and cannot be divided, even by God himself, by Lewis's reasoning. If you truly love, you will be hurt when it is taken away.
Einstein asked the same question in the physical, rather than the emotional realm. That is, if one makes an atom, it will have a nucleus and an S shell (if I remember my physics correctly.) God could make something without either of those elements, but then it's not an atom. It's something else.
So that's just three examples of three men, a rabbi, a Christian apologist, and a scientist, all trying in their own way, with their own questions, to try to understand not themselves, or the nature of their relationship with God, but the very nature of God himself.
Stuff to think about.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hall of Famer [24632]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 14075
Joined: 7/3/01
|
Re: Actually, the theory of climate change plays a part of The Garden report on...
1
Feb 10, 2024, 12:34 PM
|
|
Well, hello again. Welcome back from whatever. Very fun posts. There are some practical considerations that come to mind as I read them.
I agree with your statement that people usually read the bible to learn about God rather than self. However, imo there is as much in there about who we are as who He is. Back to that in a sec.
Any theological idea has to contain some premises. A 5000 word thesis might contain a phrase in an early sentence that assumes a certain starting point, and the remaining 4950 words depend on it. In any discussion, whether two party or a presentation, it is often difficult to pinpoint what the premises are.
I will propose this one for Genesis and the rest of the bible: Mankind was created with an intended purpose, and with a corresponding intended limitation. The purpose was relationship with Him. Don't need to go into detail about that: anyone who has or wants children understands that desire for reproducing. The limitation is that we were created without the ability to consistently understand and then make correct moral choices: we are indeed 'children' to Him.
From that premise, Genesis and the rest of the bible fall into simple, if very nuanced and multifaceted, understanding. IE, the 'whys' make sense. When people argue about what the message of the bible is, the argument is not about whether it says this or that, but the foundational premise.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [2260]
TigerPulse: 70%
Posts: 2652
Joined: 6/4/22
|
Re: Actually, the theory of climate change plays a part of The Garden report on...
1
Feb 10, 2024, 1:21 PM
|
|
"From that premise, Genesis and the rest of the bible fall into simple, if very nuanced and multifaceted, understanding. IE, the 'whys' make sense. "
Harmonization...yes. A confusing passage like this must mean something other than what it actually says because of what I already believe.
Another great example of this is the sheep and goats passage from Matthew 25. Jesus could not literally mean that salvation is based on how you treat the poor, because John 3:16 says whosoever believeth will not perish, and because Paul taught salvation by faith, not works. Matthew doesn't get to speak for himself. John and Paul speak for him. You speak for him.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hall of Famer [24632]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 14075
Joined: 7/3/01
|
Re: Actually, the theory of climate change plays a part of The Garden report on...
Feb 10, 2024, 2:46 PM
|
|
This is a good example of the need to identify premises. Your premise is that the bible is a collection of made up stories. From that perspective any comment in it can be, and should be, treated as a stand alone, and two stand alone comments can be seen to disagree. In fact, almost any two stand alone comments will show some lack of absolute consistency.
If the premise is as I proposed, as revealed in Genesis, there is nothing about Jesus's description of the judgement that is inconsistent with salvation-by-atonement. The two exist naturally. Those who read Matt 25 from that perspective are not speaking for Jesus or Matthew, they are understanding Him.
As to this discussion, you might be absolutely right about Matt 25. I, equally so. The difference is the starting point. No sense in arguing about Matt 25 without fully acknowledging the different assumptions when reading it.
Message was edited by: CUintulsa®
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [2260]
TigerPulse: 70%
Posts: 2652
Joined: 6/4/22
|
Re: Actually, the theory of climate change plays a part of The Garden report on...
Feb 10, 2024, 4:05 PM
|
|
"This is a good example of the need to identify premises. Your premise is that the bible is a collection of made up stories. From that perspective any comment in it can be, and should be, treated as a stand alone, and two stand alone comments can be seen to disagree. In fact, almost any two stand alone comments will show some lack of absolute consistency."
I've never said that about the bible. I think parts of it are "made up" in the sense that they are not based on actual historical events. Noah's ark for example...clearly every living creature did not fit in a boat and float around for 40 days and then blossom into the life we see today. That is not based on my presumptions about the bible, but yet my common sense and the scientific evidence we have available. Did the original creator of that tradition, if there even is one (most likely based on several that were passed down), mean to be telling actual history anyway, or was he trying to get some message across?
The original books of the bible were not meant to be read as a collection. When you put them together under the umbrella of a belief system with certain theological beliefs as parameters, then yes you can harmonize them to tell one continuous story, and in cases where the story doesn't add up, it is interpreted inside the parameters. That is literally one of the "rules" of biblical interpretation:
The rule of UNITY: The parts of Scripture being interpreted must be construed with reference to the significance of the whole. An interpretation must be consistent with the rest of Scripture. An excellent example of this is the doctrine of the Trinity. No single passage teaches it, but it is consistent with the teaching of the whole of Scripture (e.g. the Father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are referred to individually as God; yet the Scriptures elsewhere teach there is only one God).
https://www.apologeticsindex.org/5846-biblical-interpretation-rules#h-the-8-rules-of-bible-interpretation
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hall of Famer [24632]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 14075
Joined: 7/3/01
|
Re: Actually, the theory of climate change plays a part of The Garden report on...
Feb 11, 2024, 11:59 AM
|
|
Sure. Unless you are making a point I haven't picked up on, we seem to be agreeing: every conclusion contains a beginning premise.
A famous example is: "The flag waving on the moon is evidence the moon walk was faked." The flag did wave for a bit, and there are explanations for the waving whether in a studio or on the moon. Therefore, a person can say, "I don't believe the moon walked happened, so I believe the flag is waving in a breeze", but he cannot say, "The flag is waving, which is evidence the moon walk was faked". The latter is circular, assuming the premise, yet it was repeated many times.
The biblical story of perfection/fall/atonement/redemption happened or it didnt. You believe Matt 25 is inconsistent with, say, something Paul would say about salvation-by-faith-alone. If Jesus were not resurrected, you are probably right. If He was, I am right in seeing it as naturally consistent. The difference is the premise. There is no need in discussing whether Matt 25 is consistent with Paul unless we assume one of the premises.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [2260]
TigerPulse: 70%
Posts: 2652
Joined: 6/4/22
|
Re: Actually, the theory of climate change plays a part of The Garden report on...
Feb 11, 2024, 12:25 PM
|
|
" every conclusion contains a beginning premise."
That is simply not true. You want it to be true because YOU read the bible with the conclusion about what it says already in mind. Ironically that's exactly how I read it for years, and yet I came to a different conclusion than you.
On the surface Matthew 25 is inconsistent with John 3:16. Under the umbrella of conservative christianity, which is the perspective from which the article is written, it is interpreted in light of the theological doctrine that salvation is obtained through faith in Jesus alone, and therefor it must mean something other than what it literally says.
That is not seeking truth. That is not letting Matthew speak for Matthew and as far as I know, nowhere do any of the synoptic gospels (Matthew, Mark, and Luke) allude to what Jesus is reported to have said in John 3:16.
I don't believe that Paul and John were "making up" salvation by faith, they clearly believed it. Other christians particularly jewish ones thought works were pretty important.
History is written by the victors. Did Peter and James really concede to Paul or did their views just win out? All the early church fathers were gentiles if I'm not mistaken if that tells you anything.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hall of Famer [24632]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 14075
Joined: 7/3/01
|
Re: Actually, the theory of climate change plays a part of The Garden report on...
Feb 11, 2024, 1:35 PM
|
|
No, that is actually true. Every conclusion does begin with a premise. At least one. A person might not know what it is or be aware of it, but it is always there. That is what conclusions are, the results of examining evidence and premises. This is another thing that is not worth arguing about: that premises affect conclusions is a first rule of rationality.
In this case, whether the resurrection took place informs how one sees Matt 25, not the other way around. That premise can and should be argued (in that discussion, the resurrection is no longer the premise but the thing being examined), but it is the one that determines how one looks at Matt 25. If you don't know that premises determine conclusions, well, carry on in whatever directions that leads you.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hall of Famer [24632]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 14075
Joined: 7/3/01
|
Re: Actually, the theory of climate change plays a part of The Garden report on...
1
Feb 10, 2024, 1:18 PM
[ in reply to Re: Actually, the theory of climate change plays a part of The Garden report on... ] |
|
Edit: I should have said, "... without the ability to independently understand and make moral choices." I did not mean that we were denied the ability to intellectually understand a good thing from a bad thing. My proposed premise of the bible is that we cannot arrive there independent of Him.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [30172]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 8948
Joined: 10/31/10
|
Re: Actually, the theory of climate change plays a part of The Garden report on...
1
Feb 10, 2024, 1:39 PM
|
|
>The purpose was relationship with Him
I agree with that 100%. That is, when one reads the Bible, it's not a biography of God or his curriculum vitae regarding all the galaxies and solar systems he's created. In fact, I'd even argue that very little in the Bible is exclusively about God himself - that is, his motivations, his history, his background, etc.
Virtually everything in the Bible about God is in the context of his troubled, frustrating relationship with his annoying creations who just won't toe the line.
It's like only knowing about Sargeant Carter though his time spent with Gomer Pyle. Surely Sgt. Carter has a life, an existence, outside of correcting and berating Pyle. We just never really learn anything about it in the series. I think the Bible is like that regarding God - a partial view, perhaps.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hall of Famer [24632]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 14075
Joined: 7/3/01
|
Re: Actually, the theory of climate change plays a part of The Garden report on...
Feb 11, 2024, 1:50 PM
|
|
Agree. If one begins with the possibility that God exists, what you said is true almost by definition. If God exists, and if He did create the universe, two things have to be true: (1) there is something outside this universe, and (2) our perceptions are limited to only this one. I don't think anyone claims the bible describes everything outside this universe. One could say that it claims only to describe this one, and some of God's interaction with it.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Oculus Spirit [94487]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 95648
Joined: 12/25/09
|
I replied to your first post before reading this one.
Feb 11, 2024, 9:56 AM
[ in reply to Re: Actually, the theory of climate change plays a part of The Garden report on... ] |
|
Some observations...
1. Your wife is smarter than either of us. What she has is wisdom which is the child of understanding which is the child of knowledge. That's not to say that either knowledge or understanding get pregnant. There are minds in which neither will reproduce.
2. God is severely limited in His ability by His character and only by His character.
3. God doesn't 'think,' as we understanding thinking. He doesn't decipher, ponder, wonder, reason or consider. His knowledge, understanding and wisdom are absolute.
Failing to accept these as fact restricts a man's understanding of the Bible. These aren't my rules, I didn't fabricate them to dismiss the opinions or regards of others.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [2260]
TigerPulse: 70%
Posts: 2652
Joined: 6/4/22
|
Re: Actually, the theory of climate change plays a part of The Garden report on...
1
Feb 10, 2024, 11:55 AM
[ in reply to Re: Actually, the theory of climate change plays a part of The Garden report on... ] |
|
You've articulated a lot of my thoughts here better than I ever could.
"And then there's the very confusing "us" reference. Who is "us?" Was the story written at a time that the Jews still believed in other Gods? They speak elsewhere in Exodus of the gods of Egypt, and the God of Abraham was silent for many, many years, not even giving his name until the burning bush. We sometimes forget today that Jews were not always monotheistic. There are a lot of verses where God gets angry because they take up other folk's gods to worship."
I think this is why, whether CUintulsa® wants to believe it or not, someone like myself could spend so much time in church and never come across this passage, because it implies exactly that...
That there are multiple gods and that doesn't line up with mainstream christianity.
It sounds like god is saying to the serpent look what you've done you big dummy. Now they know too much and have to die. Like we were created to be naked and oblivious no different from the rest of the animal kingdom.
But of course like you say that brings up even more questions like why was the temptation there in the first place, and further why would god allow so much temptation today?
As Joe Dirt would say, why are bewbs good?
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [30172]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 8948
Joined: 10/31/10
|
Re: Actually, the theory of climate change plays a part of The Garden report on...
Feb 10, 2024, 1:23 PM
|
|
>That there are multiple gods and that doesn't line up with mainstream christianity.
True, but I don't see that as a problem necessarily, even withing the realm of monotheism. By that I mean it could be one God, appearing to different people in different ways, thereby giving the illusion of multiple gods.
And at some points in history that was apparently not a problem either, even among the Jews. Take Micah here, for instance, written around 700 BCE, around the time Assyria was destroying the 10 Tribes forever. It's a hopeful view of the end of the (their) world, and of better days to come, regardless of which god (or which interpretation of god) they worship. And it's very permissive, considering the interpretations of God to come in later years. (slightly redacted for brevity)
Micah 4 The Mountain of the Lord
1 In the last days the mountain of the Lord’s temple will be established as the highest of the mountains; it will be exalted above the hills, and peoples will stream to it.
2 Many nations will come and say, “Come, let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the temple of the God of Jacob. He will teach us his ways, so that we may walk in his paths.”
The law will go out from Zion, the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.
3 He will judge between many peoples and will settle disputes for strong nations far and wide.
They will beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks.
5 All the nations may walk in the name of their gods, but we will walk in the name of the Lord our God for ever and ever.
The Bible isn't homogenous by any means, but in Micah, in about 700 BCE, one has this remarkable vision of the end of the world, in which all nations are willingly and enthusiastically learning the Law, of all things.
It's being taught by the God of the Jews, even though others may choose to worship their own other gods if they wish. Essentially saying "You can learn a lot from our God, but if you chose to go elsewhere that's kosher, too."
That's a pretty different end of the world and view of God than found elsewhere in the Bible, in later times.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [2260]
TigerPulse: 70%
Posts: 2652
Joined: 6/4/22
|
Re: Actually, the theory of climate change plays a part of The Garden report on...
1
Feb 10, 2024, 1:51 PM
|
|
“ 5 All the nations may walk in the name of their gods, but we will walk in the name of the Lord our God for ever and ever.”
😳 That certainly doesn’t line up with the Christian belief that everyone who is not goes to hell.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Oculus Spirit [94487]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 95648
Joined: 12/25/09
|
You rank in the upper echelon of Tnetters as judged by me.
1
Feb 11, 2024, 9:37 AM
[ in reply to Re: Actually, the theory of climate change plays a part of The Garden report on... ] |
|
I love the way you dismantle a passage to decipher its meaning. I try to do that and end up chasing my tail metaphorically speaking. Like always I'd love to comment on your post.
1st let's try to get the right perspective toward Genesis. We need a view from a good heart which you certainly have. Having a good heart that most of all desires understanding is the key to unlocking the creation story.
A lot of good folks consider Genesis 1 and 2 in contradiction. 'It's so obvious,' they say, ignoring the fact that Moses, who recorded Genesis, was educated in the royalty settings of a pharaoh's court. Pharaoh couldn't have one of his adopted nephews considered stupid. That's just common sense which leads me to consider who between Moses and I was most educated. I flatter myself.
I felt like I'd done something special when I realized being born on June 3, 1952 brought about my 65th birthday which landed on 6-3-17, 63-17. So I posted that and my post was read by well over a thousand posters. It yielded over a hundred TUs. It was probably the pinnacle of my best. So I've been read by thousands. See where I'm going here?
I like to step back, use what I know about the writer and apply that liberally to give me perspective rather than tearing into Moses, or paying much attention to conclusions reached by others.
Has any man in history been more read than ole Moe? Is any book more read than the Bible? Does any book hold more esteem as truth?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [2260]
TigerPulse: 70%
Posts: 2652
Joined: 6/4/22
|
Re: You rank in the upper echelon of Tnetters as judged by me.
1
Feb 11, 2024, 10:11 AM
|
|
63-17...
What a glorious set of numbers.
I was in the 10th grade in 2003 and I remember my church had a gathering to watch the game. Talk about coming together...I'd rather spend the day with my MIL than watch the Palmetto bowl with a bunch of coots.
I have a mental picture still in my mind of the look of dejection on their faces as I peaked in the social hall sometime in the 4th quarter.
Their only hope was in Jesus that day because all faith in Lou Holtz was dead.
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Guru [1212]
TigerPulse: 98%
Posts: 1673
Joined: 11/15/23
|
Re: You rank in the upper echelon of Tnetters as judged by me.
1
Feb 11, 2024, 10:16 AM
|
|
we were only a year a part in school
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [2260]
TigerPulse: 70%
Posts: 2652
Joined: 6/4/22
|
Re: You rank in the upper echelon of Tnetters as judged by me.
Feb 11, 2024, 11:39 AM
|
|
So ClemsonTiger1988® and CUintulsa® are old enough to be our grandfathers...
I'm starting to see what's going on here.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Oculus Spirit [94487]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 95648
Joined: 12/25/09
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Guru [1212]
TigerPulse: 98%
Posts: 1673
Joined: 11/15/23
|
Re: You rank in the upper echelon of Tnetters as judged by me.
Feb 11, 2024, 10:42 AM
[ in reply to You rank in the upper echelon of Tnetters as judged by me. ] |
|
>I felt like I'd done something special when I realized being born on June 3, 1952 brought about my 65th birthday which landed on 6-3-17, 63-17. So I posted that and my post was read by well over a thousand posters. It yielded over a hundred TUs. It was probably the pinnacle of my best. So I've been read by thousands. See where I'm going here?
You've been holding out on this clear evidence of the supernatural this entire time!?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Oculus Spirit [94487]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 95648
Joined: 12/25/09
|
Who among us also turned 65 on 6-3-17?
Feb 11, 2024, 5:53 PM
|
|
Supernatural?
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [41003]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 43012
Joined: 11/30/98
|
well it doesnt rain saltwater
1
Feb 9, 2024, 6:34 PM
|
|
but then again back in the day science didn't matter God just did stuff
|
|
|
|
|
|
Oculus Spirit [94487]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 95648
Joined: 12/25/09
|
|
|
|
|
|
Replies: 63
| visibility 658
|
|
|
50
