Re: NO ONE is wearing their tin foil hats

I'm talking like there's no difference between saying, "NATO created the basis for Russia invading Ukraine" and saying, "NATO made Russia invade Ukraine." Ukraine joining NATO is not a reasonable pretext for Russian invasion. Full stop.

And it's not as if Ukraine would be the first NATO member to border Russia.

There is corruption in Ukraine, but doesn't mean we should equate them with Russia.

I'm sure there are people with foreign policy experience who are parroting Russian propaganda about the war. That doesn't make it credible.

You said, "One either cares about Ukraine and wants to fight at all costs, or one is MAGA and doesn't want to fight." That's untrue. I think we should continue providing reasonable support like we have been. If I were to speculate why people are opposed to supporting Ukraine, I'd say it's a combination of a diet of misinformation, false equivalences, and general opposition to anything that can be construed as part of the Democrats' agenda.

Getting back to the original question, I think it's pretty clear that people do still give a flying #### about Ukraine.

CUintulsa®

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Re: I'm not talking like you're stupid.

Jan 19, 2024, 12:00 PM

Right. I didnt want to get into all the back and forth: I was answering only the OP question. But yes, several State Dept people wanted us to back off the Ukraine/Nato stuff back before all the saber rattling started. What factor was that in the invasion? Depends on who you talk to. But we seem to keep throwing good money after bad.

Does anyone really think Russia was going to next invade Poland? Then France? No. Putin wanted Ukraine. Ukrainian oligarchs wanted what they had. Because oligarchs. Looks a lot like Vietnam and Afghanistan, except those two we could almost afford. We are now broke and about out of dry powder, I'm afraid.

There is another legit side to this, and all that would be an interesting discussion. My point was that one cant say these things without immediately hearing "preposterous" and "Russian propaganda". So, to the OP question, I'd just rather not. The fix is already in on this one, so just tell me how bad it gets and what it cost. I hope for a magic end as much as anyone else, but as before, what the end actually is, and how far away it is, no one seems to know.

Edit: If a bully picks on you, you go all in: have to defend personal autonomy, etc. If a bully picks on somebody else, you have to respond, but you have to figure out the best way. You cant stop every bully right now, you cant fight every fight right now. If you can walk in and deck the guy, do it. If you cant, you have to go about it another way, or you get beat up with nothing to show for it, which describes every war we have fought on someone else's behalf to date.

Message was edited by: CUintulsa®