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CU Guru [1194]
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Just finished "Misquoting Jesus"
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May 19, 2024, 10:10 PM
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Erhman does a great job laying out the evidence.
He clearly lays out the case (using specific references to manuscripts that you can look up yourself) that scribes changed the text to elevate Jesus' authority, downplay the role of women and to resolve conflicts.
One thing is for certain, we unequivocally do not have the original texts (or any way to know what they were outside a new discovery) and we have crystal clear evidence that they were altered, removed and added to by scribes.
It's worth noting that the King James Version relied heavily on later manuscripts, not necessarily the earliest or most reliable ones. It's funny, then, that people will claim this particular translation was inspired when it's clearly not as true to (what we have) of the earliest manuscripts.
Why go through the trouble of inspiring a text if you aren't going to ensure it gets preserved?
I think the book could have been about 1/3 as long, but was interesting for sure.
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Lot o points [157099]
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I just finished "Jesus dont play dat"
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May 19, 2024, 10:30 PM
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And he lays out the case, using specific examples, that Erhman is a FOS liar who would have been more successful in life if his mother had breast fed him.
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Hall of Famer [24614]
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CU Guru [1194]
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Re: I just finished "Jesus dont play dat"
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May 20, 2024, 6:36 AM
[ in reply to I just finished "Jesus dont play dat" ] |
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Erhman points to two different manuscripts, that are clearly different (which you can look up yourself) but sure, he’s the liar.
Btw, your pastor knows all about these changes.
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Orange Blooded [2245]
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Re: I just finished "Jesus dont play dat"
May 20, 2024, 11:49 AM
[ in reply to I just finished "Jesus dont play dat" ] |
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Why didn't Jesus just write a gospel and make sure it was preserved?
Then there wouldn't be anything to discuss.
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Lot o points [157099]
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He did but the penmanship was illegible from the poor suspension on a donkey.***
May 20, 2024, 12:30 PM
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CU Guru [1194]
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Re: He did but the penmanship was illegible from the poor suspension on a donkey.***
May 20, 2024, 12:41 PM
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I hate when i slip and accidentally add whole passages to scripture. Happens to the best of us.
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Lot o points [157099]
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I see the problem here.
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May 20, 2024, 1:22 PM
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You are on the spectrum to the point where humor is unrecognizable.
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CU Guru [1194]
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Re: I see the problem here.
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May 20, 2024, 1:45 PM
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I was riffing with you but ok bud...
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Orange Blooded [2245]
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All-In [30148]
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Re: Just finished "Misquoting Jesus"
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May 19, 2024, 11:23 PM
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I'll have to check that out. Different views of God internal to Bible won't really surprise me, since I see some for myself.
I've outlined a few in my End Times posts. So God coming to different people in different ways wouldn't surprise me at all. In fact, I kind of expect it.
If Luke heard, “Father, into your hands I commit my spirit” as Jesus's last words,
and John heard, “It is finished” as Jesus's last words,
I assume God came to Luke and John in different ways.
Since I haven't read Ehrman's work I can't really comment on it, but it seems that his focus is on Christianity alone. But as someone asked a few posts ago, does one even need the Bible to understand, or to worship, God?
It was a really, really, good question. Because most of the world believes in a higher force of some sort, pick the name and characteristics of your choice. God, Allah, Brahman, on and on. And while Ehrman's work may provide a deeper understanding into the roots of Christianity, and the texts written by true believers 2000 years ago, there are surely other views around the world and throughout history.
My related question would be (rhetorically), can we know all there is to know about God only through Christianity? What do we know of God through what he has told billions of other people, often differently? Just as he spoke to Luke and John differently.
When a man says, "God has come to me," in a different language, or culture, or religion, do you believe him?
And if not, why not?
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Legend [18065]
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Re: Just finished "Misquoting Jesus"
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May 20, 2024, 7:37 AM
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I believe God does reveal Himself to other folks - even in different religions. Not to reveal different "paths to heaven", however. God will come to reveal Himself and point to His Son, Jesus, who said, "No One comes to the Father but by Me." That is either truth or a lie. And if it isn't truth for all, then it is a lie to be rejected by all.
He might also come to others to turn their hearts to granite, where it once was sandstone. See Pharoah. People will accept His truth, or not. And for some, though it is a fearful thought, rejection of God's truth to the point where one is in a constant battle to prove they know better than God, or have some "power" over God and His will, find the [end of the road] with finality sooner rather than later. I don't necessarily mean in death of the body, but rather, death in the spirit when the heart becomes granite with no further hope for softening to accept the truth they have so vigorously rejected.
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CU Guru [1194]
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Re: Just finished "Misquoting Jesus"
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May 20, 2024, 8:08 AM
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The texts you are basing these "truths" on have been changed over time, you literally don't know what the originals said.
Nobody is rejecting god here, we are responding to claims YOU are making. You are the one claiming these are the truth, God hasn't said a word as far as I can tell.
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All-In [30148]
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Re: Just finished "Misquoting Jesus"
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May 20, 2024, 11:06 AM
[ in reply to Re: Just finished "Misquoting Jesus" ] |
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Good reply Hunt.
I've often wondered about Jesus's comment, "No One comes to the Father but by Me."
And I wonder if it's not as black and white as "truth or lie," but rather a context-based truth.
That is, if there is a Heaven, I'd think Abraham and Moses made it in. But neither of them seemingly knew or acknowledged Jesus. So if Jesus is the only way, then they are out. I think the context might be, "Once you know Jesus, he's the way in."
Similar to someone saying, "No one gets to Charleston unless you take I-26." Which is true, unless one has a plane or a boat. Context always matters, I think.
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Legend [18065]
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Re: Just finished "Misquoting Jesus"
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May 20, 2024, 8:19 PM
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But Abraham did know Jesus. Jesus is quoted in His conversation with the Jews: (John 8:48-59)
Then the Jews answered and said to Him, “Do we not say rightly that You are a Samaritan and have a demon?” Jesus answered, “I do not have a demon; but I honor My Father, and you dishonor Me. And I do not seek My own glory; there is One who seeks and judges. Most assuredly, I say to you, if anyone keeps My word he shall never see death.”
Then the Jews said to Him, “Now we know that You have a demon! Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and You say, ‘If anyone keeps My word he shall never taste death.’ Are You greater than our father Abraham, who is dead? And the prophets are dead. Who do You make Yourself out to be?”
Jesus answered, “If I honor Myself, My honor is nothing. It is My Father who honors Me, of whom you say that He is your God. Yet you have not known Him, but I know Him. And if I say, ‘I do not know Him,’ I shall be a liar like you; but I do know Him and keep His word.
Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.”
Then the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?” Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”
Then they took up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.
And Moses knew Jesus as well. As did Jacob.
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All-In [30148]
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Re: Just finished "Misquoting Jesus"
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May 21, 2024, 12:30 AM
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Yes, I had forgotten about that exchange. Thank you.
That was Jesus's position, that he existed as God (or in addition to God) since before the time of Abraham and Moses.
I'll have to think through all the implications of that. I was taught Low-Christology as a child (though I had no idea of that term as a child), where Jesus was born divine but did not exist before that. So High-Christology, where Jesus existed from before creation, is something I haven't thought fully through.
Gives me more stuff to think about!
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Legend [18065]
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Re: Just finished "Misquoting Jesus"
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May 21, 2024, 7:42 AM
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Also see Jesus as [The Angel of the Lord] in the Old Testament. He is the one who is referenced as having walked with Abraham and wrestled with Jacob. The Great "I Am" of the burning bush (this statement really angered the Jews...^^^).
He is the "Light" at the beginning of creation - the sun, moon, and stars create on the fourth day. He is the "light" (where no sun is needed) in Revelation 21:23. (Beginning & end - He is there)
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All-In [30148]
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Re: Just finished "Misquoting Jesus"
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May 21, 2024, 11:51 AM
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I think the differences between High and Low would make for an interesting discussion in a separate post.
I can see both sides. The points you have made are excellent, and I think each interpretation answers some question but perhaps opens others.
For instance, if Jesus has existed since creation, why hasn't faith in Jesus been sufficient for salvation since creation? That is, why did Jesus/God even give Moses the Law, when he could have said in the Sinai, simply believe in me, that's all it takes. That seems easier to answer in Low Christology, where Jesus was not around yet.
Another question would be Jesus's "why hast thou forsaken me?" If Jesus is God, or has been around as long as God, one would think he might know the 'plan', whatever that plan may be. But if Jesus was just a man, albeit of miraculous birth, with the limitations of man, his question makes sense.
As I mentioned, this gives me a lot of new stuff to think about.
Thanks for the input. I might make High/Low a new thread once I think about it enough.
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Hall of Famer [23061]
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Just curious, what historical records...
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May 20, 2024, 8:28 AM
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.... do you believe are accurate?
Did Julius Ceasar, Atilla the Hun, Alexander the Great, Napoleon Bonaparte, even live or are they just myths? Are the historical records we have about their lives accurate or just stories that have changed over hundreds of years?
And, do you hold those historical records you believe are accurate to the same standard you hold the Bible?
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CU Guru [1194]
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Re: Just curious, what historical records...
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May 20, 2024, 8:41 AM
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I'll answer your question but let's try to stay on topic. The bible, as we have it, has changed over time yes?
Regarding historical records, history is not a monolith. It isn't black and white: this is true and this is not. History is what we think most probably happened. Some events have better evidence than others. The evidence for the resurrection is quite bad. Conflicting accounts? Written decades after the fact by non-eyewitnesses? By people who had a vested interest in the religion? Really?
>And, do you hold those historical records you believe are accurate to the same standard you hold the Bible?
Let's make one thing crystal clear, 100% yes. You are the one cherry-picking and say that only the Christian's supernatural claims are the ones that are real. You ignore all the other supernatural claims, even though they meet the same standards.
You are the one saying that a claim is good enough to say that, by definition, an improbable event is more likely to have happened than the more obvious/probable claims that these are legends.
If you are going to claim that I have a different standard for christian claims vs others, please do show me. I bet you can't, because I haven't done that. I can show where you have though.
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Hall of Famer [23061]
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Thanks. I would suggest...
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May 20, 2024, 9:07 AM
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.... you read books by Josh McDowell, Sean McDowell, Lee Strobel, J. Warner Wallace, and read them with the same objectivity you read Bart Ehrman with.
But, if your premise is, "There is no God" then it doesn't matter what you read. Your conclusion will be, "See, I told you there is no God."
I'm amazed you say that the books were written long after the resurrection and not by eyewitnesses. John was certainly an eyewitness. James was the brother of Jesus. He was certainly an eyewitness. Paul, while he may not have actually been an eyewitness to the crucifixion was a contemporary of it.
And, as for your claim that the thousands of manuscripts we have of the Bible have differences in them, I suggest you - if you are really interested - study those minor discrepancies and hold them to the same standard you hold the changes in the stories about Ceasar, Nero, Hannibal, etc.
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CU Guru [1194]
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Re: Thanks. I would suggest...
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May 20, 2024, 9:22 AM
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>you read books by Josh McDowell, Sean McDowell, Lee Strobel, J. Warner Wallace, and read them with the same objectivity you read Bart Ehrman with.
I have consumed hours and hours of content by these people. I HAVE read them with the same objectivity I have read Ehrman. Have you? I bet you haven't and yet you accuse me of doing so.
Ehrman will point to textual evidence you can check yourself, the bible has changed, McDowell will appeal to your emotions. There is a big difference.
>But, if your premise is, "There is no God" then it doesn't matter what you read. Your conclusion will be, "See, I told you there is no God."
Again, I just don't understand the accusations. I do not go around saying "there is no god". You go around saying there is, I simply ask for the evidence, which you don't provide. I don't believe in god because I don't have the evidence to do so.
>I'm amazed you say that the books were written long after the resurrection and not by eyewitnesses. John was certainly an eyewitness.
Oh really? Please, quote where john claims to be an eyewitness? You should really read these things:
35 The man who saw it has given testimony, and his testimony is true. He knows that he tells the truth, and he testifies so that you also may believe.
Whoever wrote John (and many scholars, including Christians think it was a group work) are talking about someone who testifies that it is true. The writer(s) of John is not claiming to be an eyewitness.
Also, what amazing you about the length of time between the resurrection and when they were written, are you not aware they were decades later?
>And, as for your claim that the thousands of manuscripts we have of the Bible have differences in them, I suggest you - if you are really interested - study those minor discrepancies and hold them to the same standard you hold the changes in the stories about Ceasar, Nero, Hannibal, etc.
I do hold them to the same standard, why do you keep lying on this point? Show me a single instance where I have held them to a different standard.
Passages were added/removed wholesale and we have hard evidence of that but sure, minor discrepancies.
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